<p>When I was teaching school, we had an inservice about the OP subject. If memory serves, there had been studies done on how teachers treated boys and girls differently, often in subtle and unconscious ways. Many of the assertions made in the OP were addressed and supposedly research had backed up the inequities. I remember at the time thinking I would try to objectively examine my attitudes in the classroom in order to determine if I was guilty of any of the behaviors mentioned. As it turned out, I only taught school for 3 years before I decided to switch careers, so I never got very far with my self reflection on that score.</p>
<p>This was in the mid 80’s, so hopefully these things are no longer true, if they ever were.</p>
<p>A moot point for my daughters, as they attended an academically vigorous private all girls school which strongly encourages achievement in all subjects and consistently sends many of its graduates to top schools.</p>
Thank you! It never seems to occur to anyone that some girls (GASP!) simply don’t * like* STEM. It’s not that they can’t do it, it’s just that they can’t stand it! I was/am one of these all the way. Girls are getting STEM shoved at them like teaching and nursing was 50 years ago and in its own way it’s just as bad.</p>
<p>Alternatively, unless they have a passion for a particular STEM field that is so strong that they are willing to put up with a lot of unpleasant experiences, they could simply choose a career path where they won’t be made to feel unwelcome. </p>
<p>I’m not questioning your advice, TheGFG. I think it’s good advice for the girl who really, really wants to be an engineer or computer scientist. </p>
<p>But what about the girl who might find these fields interesting but could also be just as happy and successful in other careers? Why, exactly, should she put up with a hostile environment when she can make her way in the world in a different career where she would be far more comfortable?</p>
<p>One of the key reasons for this is woefully inadequate math and science preparation. This was one major reason why so many aspiring engineers in my friends’ colleges and the aspiring CS majors in the first two intro classes flunked out. Rate in two of the classes I took were 50% and ~33% respectively. </p>
<p>Another related cause may be due to woefully high grade inflation and lack of sufficient rigor in many high schools which allowed many students to coast to graduation with high GPAs or sometimes even high math SATs* and yet, suffer heavily once they hit the wall academically upon finding out they can’t coast as easily once they’re in college. Especially considering the workloads and heavy credits/term engineering/CS majors are expected to take. </p>
<ul>
<li>While having higher math SATs may have a slightly better chance of predicting better math preparation, as with the GPA the math SAT may not necessarily predict whether the aspiring engineering/CS major has sufficient work ethic, perseverance, sustained genuine interest, and grit to get through the program.</li>
</ul>
<p>^this is one reason we DO look at AP scores and Sat 2’s. </p>
<p>My girls’ hs (also all-girls) tried hard to prepare them for STEM. A little this and a little that, tweaking, incentives. The one thing they missed (speaking as someone who didn’t get through college physics the first time- and ended up in an allied engineering field,) is to make it fun. Fun, to me, means practical- get the stars dancing in their eyes. My girls were loaded with formulae and the same old routine stuff. By the time they got to the roller coaster build, they were SOL.</p>
<p>I actually think women’s minds operate well for engineering- starting with approach, time management and (real) problem resolution. But I agree, the pure tasks may not be “enough” for many. I was lucky to work in software and product development and marketing. Most hs gals have no idea of the range of ways they can use stem experience or a little knack. That’s another thing we need to help them see. It’s NOT all cubbyholes and those guys with the soup stained ties.</p>
<p>Quick take on this issue: I think progress tends to come slowly, although perhaps my suggestion that the pace is one generation/one stage of achieving equality (i.e., equality in high school AP courses, then equality in undergrad majors, then equality at the Ph.D. level . . . ) is too pessimistic. I don’t think that a woman who is talented in STEM fields but finds another career more rewarding or just more comfortable should be pressured into choosing a STEM career.</p>
<p>What this means in practice is that young women like Poeme–those who have a deep interest in STEM subjects that overrides the negatives–will probably still have to tread a lonely path in STEM, close to 40 years after I set out on mine. However, I think that young women today can feel assured that if they persevere, they will be helping to open the way for others in the future. Having a few more women who become full professors in physics at top universities will help to reduce the obstacles faced by young women who would like to major in physics, get at Ph.D. and take a tenure-track appointment. The existence of women far up the career ladder helps with equalization of opportunities below. And it will make the field more comfortable for those who are interested, all along the way.</p>
<p>In comparison with medicine, a very interesting read is the 1998 book by Dr. Frances K. Conley, Walking Out on the Boys. If you just take a look at this profile of Conley, I think the majority of posters will be surprised by how rapidly neurosurgery has changed, in terms of the attitude toward women:</p>
<p>A high SAT-R math score indicates that the student can do high school algebra and geometry. While this may be a necessary prerequisite to success in engineering (or other math-heavy subjects, or even the statistics used in social studies research), it is not sufficient.</p>
<p>As I don’t mind showing my ignorance, I’ll share that years ago when my D said that math was her favorite subject and if she went to college she’d major in that, I didn’t say anything to her, but my immediate thought was what the heck can you do with a math major! Yeah. So I did some checking online and found, much to my surprise, that it’s one of the best majors to have. lol I literally hadn’t a clue before doing some “research.” </p>
<p>In my limited info on other students, I do think that girls who are good in math tend to also be good in other subjects, and have more options. Maybe it’s related to whole brain thinking, multitasking and other things that some studies have shown women excel in. I don’t know. Whereas, again with my limited knowledge of other students, most guys, that I know, going into the math fields tend to hate writing and are more “single-mindedly” (not exactly Webster’s approved) math or science oriented.</p>
<p>I also agree that change comes slowly. It wasn’t that many years ago that women physicians were an anomaly. I think that with math and computer science change will also come about, although probably more slowly (?). From what I’ve been reading, some universities are really trying to attract women and are trying to bring in more women as professors and mentors to help encourage them in their studies. Change doesn’t happen overnight. </p>
<p>As far as the lack of encouragement for mathy girls in elementary school, not to stereotype, but I would think that some of that is due to the typical elementary school teacher’s aversion to math and the fact that most are more into English and the humanities. I know that there are incentives for math majors to go into teaching, but the salary issue is one that’s hard to overcome. </p>
<p>I think that when an attention-getter like the starting of Apple, or Google, or Facebook … is accomplished by a woman, that it will become “cooler” for girls to be into math and computers and we’ll see more women choosing those majors. Maybe one of our daughters will be the one.</p>
<p>I have no special love for STEM and can understand why girls who like other fields equally as well may chose those in which they encounter less hostility. However, the advice to persevere is needed for any profession that is attractive, pays well, and has good jobs that men also want. Men have no problem with women running their own daycare businesses, for example. They may be less happy about women running tech companies (or serving on football committees). D did a financial services internship this summer and one of the senior guys made a nasty crack about how girls shouldn’t go into investment banking.</p>
<p>“As others noted–many girls just prefer Bio over physics and econ over comp sci. No conspiracy there.”</p>
<p>“My daughter did well in both math and science in school. But she liked math and disliked science. She majored in economics in college and chose a career path that involves math but not science.”</p>
<p>At our public school, kids are required to take intensive science/engineering classes in order to enroll in honors math. This program attracts a disproportionate number of boys. Who would have guessed? Kids (usually girls) who are talented at math, but have little interest in physical science are put into a program that isn’t accelerated by any stretch of the imagination. The administration and school board see nothing wrong with requiring demonstrated interest and commitment to physical sciences and engineering as a prerequisite to enrolling in honors math. I feel this policy is discriminatory.</p>
<p>There could also be boys who like math but not science. But requiring enrollment in honors science to enroll in honors math does not make sense. It seems like an artificial barrier to the honors math courses, perhaps because the school does not have the capacity to teach more honors math courses (not enough qualified math teachers).</p>
<p>I find this illogical as well. My husband was an econ. major and worked as an econometrician after graduation. He and his roommate, a math major who worked in applied math after graduation, both took baby chem. to fulfill the college science requirement. Neither had the slightest interest in science or engineering.</p>
<p>It’s not a matter of capacity. They say they don’t see anything wrong with restricting math access to kids who are required to write essays about their interest in engineering and selecting them based on the essays and factors including participation/success in science fair projects or robotics. They even say that you don’t have to be the best math student! Every single year, more boys than girls make it past this gauntlet, but they don’t see anything wrong with that. I wouldn’t have a problem with it if they would provide comparable math instruction to the kids (mostly girls) outside the program. But they refuse to do that.</p>
<p>Seems like they are clueless to the possibility of students who like and are good at math, but do not have a strong interest in science (at least as “science” is defined in high school – biology, chemistry, and physics). Plenty of students major in math, statistics, computer science, and economics in college without taking a lot of heavy biology, chemistry, or physics.</p>
<p>While math can be a prerequisite to science (particularly physics), the reverse is not true. It looks like the high school in question has it exactly backward.</p>
<p>Just speaking from my own experiences, as a female computer science and linguistics double major.</p>
<p>It is true that I’ve gotten comments about how I’m in a “man’s major”. Most of these actually come from women – they ask why I’d want to do that and not something like nursing or teaching. Mind you, only a couple people have told me that, but I have gotten those comments. The more common response regarding sex is something along the lines of “Wow, how do you put up with being around guys all the time?” That one’s come from a variety of people, and I can understand it since it was a bit of a culture shock at first to go from classes that were about even to classes where a vast majority of students are male. And of course, there’s difficulty comments. From what I’ve seen that’s not exclusive to female majors, though.</p>
<p>As for how my peers treat me, there’s usually an initial surprised reaction, and they tend to be skeptical initially. Once I show that I do have some inkling of what I’m doing/talking about though, the initial surprise goes away and they treat me as they treat any other CS major. I’ve seen people be skeptical of the newer CS majors in general though (seeing as a lot only do it for the job prospects rather than interest), and heck I’ve noticed that I do that too. It is a little more pronounced when one of my male peers is talking to a woman who hasn’t “proven herself” yet, I’ll admit, but again they’re accepting once they see that you’re serious about the field. The only exception to that that I can think of is one guy in my intro programming class who insisted that women can’t work with computers under any circumstances, and that my results were just a series of flukes that’d stop eventually. Naturally, I proceeded to continually get higher scores than him while he dropped out of the major. I feel it’s also worth noting that other CS majors often came to my defense (and any other girl he was bugging) if they saw what was going on.</p>
<p>Overall, in my experience what you say in the OP is true, but only in very specific cases. More commonly, there’s initial surprise but beyond that I’m treated as normal. In fact, people in general are more likely to be impressed and encourage me to stick with it than to discourage me.</p>
<p>Much2Learn re: your original post.
Where in the U.S. is this stuff that you describe happening? I’m sure there are places in the U.S. where it happens, but my daughter’s experience was the polar opposite of what you describe. I guess I should be grateful that she was encouraged by her public schools to study science. All of her high-achieving high school friends except one just started college with a hard-science major.</p>
I feel it’s also worth noting that other CS majors often came to my defense (and any other girl he was bugging) if they saw what was going on.</p>