<p>I'd ignore the friend's comments about writing her kid's essays--don't mention it, especially to your kid. I'm not that surprised that some parents might do this, but that they'd admit it so casually. . .(?!)</p>
<p>I disagree that the SAT/ACT essays can be used to see if a kid "cheated" on an application essay. A student can polish an application essay over weeks or months. My kid couldn't write anything like "himself" in 25 minutes. If someone read S's SAT essay (I read it on-line--it was bad) and his application essays (which he spent a lot of time on, edited carefully, and enjoyed writing because they were all about his favorite topic--himself), I'm certain he'd be suspected of cheating. I think it would be much easier--though not 100%-- to "out" adult-written essays. OTOH I hate to think that some students with very "adult" writing styles will be falsely suspected of cheating. (BTW, I've read a lot of student essays on CC over the last couple of years--HUGE range of styles, quality, topics. . .) </p>
<p>I read one of my kid's essays after he'd submitted it. I found a spelling error (cringe). I told him that his conclusion was weak and made him sound "shallow and immature." His response? "But, Mom, I'm 17-- I AM shallow and immature!" He had me there.</p>
<p>mimk6, I agree with your post. When I said I never saw my son's essays, I did mean "I" never saw them. In fact, as I have written before on cc, my son and several friends had an essay writing/reviewing party at our house very near to one of the deadlines. They all traded essays, had a good laugh at each other's expense, let each other know if an idea really fell flat. That is a far cry from mom or dad sitting down and crafting an essay. None of those kids had the time to write anything for each other, just to give general feedback.</p>
<p>Of course, it may have been a case of the blind leading the blind.</p>
<p>Others have mentioned they would have done a lousy job of writing a college essay, so their kids would not have benefited by having them do it for them. Most certainly that would have been the case here; I have no idea how to write something like that, and would not have been any help actually generating ideas or giving it the right tone.</p>
<p>I also think that the SAT essay and the app essays might be wildly different in style and quality, and still be the honest work of the same kid.</p>
<p>Mine was "old" SAT, so the comparison wasn't possible. But he is a "bi-modal" kid - strongest in math/science and then in creative writing. Not so strong in analytic essays of the type that might be required for an SAT prompt.</p>
<p>He could take most app essay prompts and turn them to his own strengths, with either a creative short-storyish essay, which he did for some apps; or something a lot closer to that (day in the life).I don't think he could play to his own strengths in a time limited analyze-this-prompt or discuss-this-ssue essay- especially if the issue was of no import to him. He is also one whose first efforts can be quite disorganized - and many excellent writers start this way (get it down on paper, revise and refine massively later), which would work very poorly in the SAT essay situation, I imagine.</p>
<p>There is a big difference between a parent reviewing an application and essay, and writing it. </p>
<p>I have posted this before, but it fits with the way this thread is going. Here is what the Stanford admissions department has to say on the topic:</p>
<p>"One question we are frequently asked by prospective applicants and their parents relates to getting help with the application process: “How much help is too much?” While there are few hard and fast rules, we believe a clear line is crossed when a piece of the application ceases to be exclusively the student’s in both thought and word. That is not to say that it is wrong to solicit feedback, just that there is a difference between “feedback” and “coaching.”</p>
<p>Appropriate feedback occurs when an applicant shows someone the completed application, perhaps once or twice, and is apprised of any glaring errors or omissions. Inappropriate coaching, on the other hand, occurs when either the essays or the applicant’s entire self-presentation is colored by someone other than the applicant.</p>
<p>We advise all prospective applicants, in fact, to resist the urge to “package” themselves in order to come across in a way they think Stanford wants. Such attempts simply blur the picture of who the student actually “is” – what he values, what motivates her, what may in fact be distinctive. The strongest applications we see each year are those where the student’s genuine voice stands out." </p>
<p>Don't you think it's weird that an over-involved parent would do this when all of the resources on writing personal statments seem to be in agreement that the best ones reflect the student's own voice. Do you think they get that or do you think they are qualified to write like a 17 year old in 2007. ACK!!! I wonder how often it backfires?</p>
<p>On related note, we had a parent at the hs where I teach who did her son's work. Funny how his tests and in class writing could never really stack up against his research papers and essays. His gift at graduation was a fax machine so that she could continue to "help" him across the miles when he was at college. I don't know what happened w/ them but I believe "they" eventually had to leave college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
. Do you think they get that or do you think they are qualified to write like a 17 year old in 2007.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think they don't get it.</p>
<p>The OPs experience makes me very sad.
Why do so many parents think that their kids aren't good enough? </p>
<p>As the parent of a daughter who fancied herself a writer in the 3rd grade, and would come home miffed if her TEACHER made comments on her work because, "If I had wanted to say what she said I should write, I would have written it," I really can't relate to a parent who would rob their child of her voice. My son is not a gifted writer, but he's an honest one, and it showed in his essays. I think a parent who would do this doesn't get a lot of things about child rearing. It's very sad, actually. And I'll bet it won't pay off.</p>
<p>I actually am not in the least bit surprised parents write their kids essys. In my d's prep school parents paid the director for their kids to get leads, one parent did all her son's papers throughout upper school freeing him to be in every production as lead. He was great at standardized tests and he got accepted to a bunch of ivys. Not an ethical bone in his or her body. He is a severely anorexic, terribly sad young man and I feel for him.</p>
<p>My d wouldn't even let me see her essays or any other part of her application. I didn't do her work ever for the simple reason she could and did. Things worked out fine for her .She's commented how good it makes her feel to know it was fully her accomplishment.</p>
<p>I was floored a few years ago when a man told me that his wife got an A- at the college their son was attending. I asked how she did that? He said "through the magic of e-mail." I looked puzzled and he went on to say that she basically wrote all of her sons papers in a writing course freshman year. I was stunned and said nothing, but wish I had asked why they didn't consider it cheating. </p>
<p>I will tell you that I now wonder if some of this kids A's in high school weren't actually his mom's. It throws everything this kid has achieved into question in my mind.</p>
<p>My kids wouldn't be caught dead letting me write anything for them. Not that I ever would!</p>
<p>Anyway, if kids grow up thinking this is okay, what kind of ethics do they carry with them into the business world after they graduate. I believe this kid is working for an investment banking firm now.</p>
<p>Well, I'm a professional writer, poet, novelist. The works (not very successful, so not bragging.) I can write in any voice I like and I'm pretty sure adcoms would never know.</p>
<p>I did not contribute one word to my kids' essays. They lived in the shadow of my writing, and I didn't want them to go to college thinking Mommy got into college, especially when these were selective colleges they were pursuing. I had no imput into D's essay. She started her essay, "I am a dork." S's essay I had this much input, "What should I write about? I'm lost." Me: Write about what you care about most. He: Star Wars? Me: Why not? I'm pretty sure moms don't write about Star Wars (though I guess I could have; wouldn't be my 100th choice.)</p>
<p>Since I really do believe fit and matching is an important part of the college process, they could have ended up at the colleges I best fit at. I really did not want that for them. EditING consisted of pointing out awkward or corny phrases and having them fix them.</p>
<p>About the ethics issue and the other mom: I would just shrug. College admissions is such an unlevel playing field that i would sigh and say "Oh well."</p>
<p>Two stories about students and plagiarized papers: One student handed in a paper his father wrote. (He was a C+/B- writer.) He openly admitted it to me by saying, this was an important paper. Think I'd hand in the ****I can write? You can't prove it anyway.</p>
<p>Another parent wrote all her sons papers. He is developmentally challenged. Can read a little, but can't write a sentence. I called her and said I didn't think her son was doing his own work. "Of course he isn't, she said. He's retarded." Grr. Please, I pleaded, but him in a workshop school where he can learn something useful to him.</p>
<p>Oh, one paper five students printed out the same internet piece. Didn't change a word. The first listing on google. Didn't even put work into cheating!</p>
<p>"There is, though, I think an actual.... LINE. Which is crossed when a parent sits down to write essays because "her kid is too busy." Some would draw the line way earlier on your continuum - any help at all maybe, anything beyond noting a misplaced comma, ...."</p>
<p>I agree with you that a line was definitely and eggregiously crossed.</p>
<p>I admit it - I helped my d. Her story, her voice, her writing. But - she got it down to 723 words and really wanted to make the 500 word cutoff. So she and I did some drastic editing. She saw my cuts, put some things back in, took other things out, and made it to 500 words. But it was still her story. And I think it was also her work in deciding what to edit. Heck, if Ernest Hemingway can have an editor, why can't a 17 year old?</p>
<p>It is possible to rationalize almost anything, even cheating on a college application. Is calling help editing a college essay to extreme? I do not think so because many applicant receive no help, the work is totally their own.</p>
<p>And good parenting is about teaching our progeny how to live a good life. A little help on the college essay-hey everyone gets help! The ends justify the means. Those pesky adcoms will never know. But the real kicker is that your child wil know and learn these lessons and know that you condone them. Is any edge on a college application worth that. I do not think so.</p>
<p>So parents, go ahead and help on that homework assignment or college essay. Just do not give me excuses to think that it is perfectly okay because it isn't.</p>
<p>But then I was an amateur tourney golfer for many years and we are taught to call penalties on ourselves, even when nobody else sees them. Just a little thing called honor.</p>
<p>My D had a dream school many states away and I let her submit her essays untouched. They were not her best nor were they going to get her in that school. She was rejected. Better that than her get into a school she did not belong.</p>
<p>I teach courses on-line and when I get questionable work, I frequently call the students up, at home, when they're not expecting it. "Just called to chat about your essay . . " is how I start off. "How did you get the idea for that particular thesis?" "Let's talk about the resources you used . . " You get the idea. It's pretty easy to rat out who didn't write their own paper. I don't know about you but i LOVE picturing Johny's mom when the admissions counselor calls the house to "chat" with Johny about his essay. I'm hoping that that occurs occasionally. </p>
<p>Also, I've been an alumni admissions interviewer, and in that context, it's also incredibly easy to see who didn't write their own college applications. You just have to ask the right questions.</p>
<p>Momzie, unfortunately adcoms are normally not able to question applicants except in seemingly egegious circumstances. The are force to rely on a concluding statement such as is found in the Common Application. "I certify that ALL information submitted in the admission process-including the application, the PERSONAL ESSAY and any SUPPLEMENTS, and any supporting materials-is MY OWN WORK, factually true, and HONESTLY prepared. </p>
<p>Students who receive any help from parents, teachers, admission counselors or friends are violating this statement. In short they are lying and endorsing this lie with their signature. And by allowing them to sign and submit the application their parents are supporting this dishonesty. </p>
<p>Very poor parenting IMHO. But hey, everybody else is doing it so it must be okay. Or perhaps we are just a morally lax society for the most part.</p>
<p>Thank you, Chedva. I was feeling pretty crumby reading these posts, thinking I was one of "those" parents. I did help with the brutal process of cutting, pointed out what I thought could go, mostly after getting pep talks from some good people on this board. She didn't always take my advice but I was definitely engaged. The voice and subject are entirely hers. For what it's worth, she got 12's on both the SAT and ACT essays. If she really couldn't write an essay on her own, I don't think I'd be encouraging her to apply to colleges where writing skills are expected.</p>
<p>The bottom line is INTEGRITY. As parents, WE have the responsibility to teach our children right from wrong. There will alway be parents that look down their nose at how others parent. Each of us know when are children are not living up to their ability. </p>
<p>I have a neighbor (Lynn) who is kind of loud and obnoxious. She is all about appearances and has no problem "one-upping" other parents during chit-chat at our kid's events. I have learned to look past these characteristic in her. Our family's are similar when it comes to values and discipline. I have two older boys than her two however our youngest are the same age. Our youngest boys attended the same JH school. We both know that all five of our boys are very gifted in many areas in and out of school. She gets a kick out of some of our more "creative parenting" examples and uses some that work for her. For example, our family has established an agreed consequense each time they get a grade lower than "B" on any assignment. They earn one day grounding in their room for a "C", 2 days for a "D" and 3 days for an "F" (multiple low grades warrant cumulative days). If they earn lower than a "B" on midterms or grade cards, they are grounded until the next grade reports are issued. This standard was set by our boys when our oldest was in 4th grade. Our oldest got caught hiding low assignment grades in his school desk after we asked the teacher why he got "C's" on his grade card. The boys felt it was "fair" punishment for not doing their best. (It sure beats a spanking!) They have learned to take this all in stride because they are rewarded for their hard work. More importantly, they learned at an early age there are consequenses for lying or being deceitful. (We also have made our boys run around the block for misbehaving, no matter if it is sunny, raining, or snowing. BTW-they all participate(d) in cross country & track.) </p>
<p>Sorry, back to the neighbor story..... Lynn told me about a time when she was talking about one of my boys to another local mom. This other mom said "Isn't that the family who grounds their kids if they don't get all "A's"? Lynn replied, "No, thats the family who's son got Appointments to West Point, the US Air Force Academy, and two full ROTC scholarships!" Lynn admitted that the other mom was speachless for having just been caught looking down her nose at our parenting choices.</p>
<p>During my son's application process for the military academies, we were told that the selection process was very tough, yet they could tell when a parent took control of the paperwork. There were many times that I had to make calls for my son to our Congressman's Office or the Academies. My son did not get home from school and sports practices until long after business hours. </p>
<p>We are in the thick of round two with our middle son graduating next June.<br>
This too shall pass. Round three is only three years away!</p>
<p>Chedva and mammall, I too was my son's essay editor. It still ended up at about 700 words. He wrote the initial draft, I looked at it and knew it needed big help - it was too scattered and lacked direction. I told him he needed to choose one point and focus on it. After waiting a month (AARRGGHH), he pulled it back out, chopped off the front, started with the point he had in the middle and focused on one thing. Viola! At that point I made editorial suggestions for clarity and to try to reduce words, but it was up to DS to chose which advice to take and which to ignore. In the end he wrote a great essay on a topic I never would have chosen, and was accepted to 6 of 7 schools. </p>
<p>I did the initial research and came up with a list of possible schools to look at during DS's junior year. I gave him the list, told him to add or delete as he pleased, but I thought these were schools that met HIS chosen criteria (small, selective, non-urban, etc). He decided most of them looked good, he ended up eliminating 1 and adding a different one. We sat down with a calendar together and came up with a plan for visiting schools. When it came to the apps, he filled them out but I proofread them and made editorial suggestions. He did the demographic section - all his schools used the Common App so he only had to do it once, and I figured he needed to learn all that info anyway.</p>
<p>I probably did too much, but it came out alright. I would NEVER have written his whole essay for him though. </p>
<p>As for the OP's question - how would you react? - I probably wouldn't have said much to the woman's face. At that point, the damage is done - if I tell her she was wrong to do it, she's not going to listen to me. And if she does suddenly "see the light" - well the apps have already been submitted and its too late.</p>