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<p>If you mean 50% to four year colleges, that is probably above average nationwide. But it may be below average if you include those going to community college, trade schools, and other post-secondary education.</p>
<p>Any college whatsoever.</p>
<p>sybbie719’s rant should be required reading for every parent with a child entering high school. It certainly provides insight into the minds of the GC department… and how truly minor an issue our children’s college education is to them.</p>
<p>I’ll quote myself. 
“If your kid is smart and does well, it’s really up to the parents to make sure they do all the right things to make their kid’s wish list happen.”</p>
<p>These counselors are called academic advisors in our large CA district, and do not have to have even an Associates 2-year degree. They are considered para-professionals, and are often former office clerks/secretaries who were promoted. I have seen the exact job requirements on the district’s website, and they are surprisingly low.</p>
<p>Their pay is significantly less than the average teacher’s pay, and it seems every couple of years, they eliminate some of the positions to give the remaining advisors an even bigger workload ~ 600 students each.</p>
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<p>All your comment demonstrates is that you have a very myopic view of what you think the role of the GC is and that you still don’t understand what Guidance Counselors do and what their role is in the school. </p>
<p>Just because you may have successfully maneuvered the process to get a desired outcome for your physics major child, does that now make you qualified to a GC (nope). Would have been able to maneuver a successful outcome for my liberal arts kid? I went to an engineering high school where I learned how to run a engine lathe, draw and read blue prints and took foundry, where we created molds and had to pour hot metal, and graduated as a chem major. But it does not make me an engineer, an architect or a chemist.</p>
<p>I never said that College advising was such a minor issue to GCs, which would be ironic thing for me to say considering the fact that along with my counseling duties I teach junior seminars and college awareness classes and I have successfully gone through this process and have had successful outcomes with literally thousands of students. </p>
<p>What I said was that is was not the only part of our job. However, it seems as if many parents think that all we do is sit in our office and hand out college applications, make a couple of schedule changes for students who want to drop a class or meet with the troublemakers in the school (none which needs a psychology based masters degree to do). </p>
<p>Remember college counselors/advisors and Guidance Counselors are two separate things. Every school is structured differently; there are schools where there may be dedicated college counselors/advisors (these people may not necessarily be Guidance Counselors). Are there good GCs and bad GCs? Absolutely, just like there are good and bad doctors, lawyers, engineers, writers and people working in every type of jobs. However, just because I ran across a couple of bad ones, I would not paint them all with the same broad strokes.</p>
<p>Wow, sybbie, really appreciate your repeated (and mostly irrelevant) rants! Take a step back for a moment. No one is attacking you personally or your profession. What the OP and the others in this thread are saying is that schools who put someone in the role of “college advisor” should make sure that person is someone who (a) knows what they’re doing and (b) does not have such a heavy workload that it prevents them from doing their job properly.</p>
<p>A school shouldn’t tell parents and students that “Mr. GC” will guide them through the college application process and then sit back and do nothing while Mr. GC misses deadlines, advises students not to bother filling out financial aid applications until after they get their decisions in April (yes, this was actually just reported in financial aid forum!), etc., etc.</p>
<p>Some schools take college guidance very seriously. Others don’t. And the parents whose kids attend the latter group of schools have a right to complain when their kids are not only not guided, but misguided.</p>
<p>The problem with most high schools when it comes to college counseling is that most do not have counselors whose jobs are focused just on college applications. As Sybbies writes, there are many other facets to the a GC’s job and there are some that can truly extend into life and death matters, whether a kid graduates from high school, ends up in jail, stays with his parents, etc, etc. So college is just one item on the list.</p>
<p>I’ve been privileged as have been my kids, to have been with schools with GCs dedicated to college applications and other academic matters with personal GCs and pyschologists on staff to deal with the other more essential issues. This is the case for some of the school districtts considered tops in the country in terms of college matriculations and independent and other preparatory schools. </p>
<p>So lucky us, right? Nope. Don’t even get a false sense of security in such cases. Sorry, Sybbie, but I do Counselor bash, because there are too many of them, way too many of them, some of them former ad coms even, who are not very smart, informed, intrepid, wise about the college process. It’s enough to make your eyes cross. I got burned twice by letting them pretty much run the show with my kids, botch it with some pretty big mistakes, misstatements and just plain bad general advice. I watched them basically wreck my friend’s life in terms of encouraging loans and schools that the family could not afford and they knew the financial circumstances, and I called up this prestigious school and gave them a piece of my mind, it was so bad. My sons’ school now hires an outside consultant for financial aid, in part due to some vigorous complaints and yes, I instigated a lot of them. They had no clue, none about fin aid. One thing I will say about the Catholic prep schools is that they are up and aware about the scholarships out there. Not so the most pricey independent schools in my area. I guess they are above all of that. </p>
<p>One of my closest friend had a daughter in one of the top boarding schools in the country, and the college guidance was poor. Downright incorrect information given. NYU was the girl’s safety school. SAFETY SCHOOL? She was not accepted anywhere, got a spot off a WL at am :ACE due to GC’s help, I’ll give her that, and then, surprise, got no fin aid or consideration as WL kids are not included in full aid guarantees. Also the NCPs were all rejected much to my friend’s surprise. It was a train wreck. i read this GC being quoted in some national publications about college admissions and I cringe each time I see her name. Yeah, I called her too. </p>
<p>So even if you are spending top dollars at a college prep school with counselors dedicated to the process, you still have to stay on top of it. The fact of the matter is that your child s not the only one in the batch and unless the student/famiily needs and wants coincide with what the counselor does well, you may be out of luck. </p>
<p>So when the best of the best gives less than the best, what the heck can one expect with the public school GCs with huge student loads who have to juggle many more important things in the students’ lives than whether some kids get into selective colleges. I will say, that most of the time, there is a niche at which most of these counselors excell. At one very big public school, I would put the guidance staff up against anyone when it came to knowing the state school system. They had it down pat. They could tell you about the former teachers’ colleges, the state U, the ancillary branches and all of that stuff and I couldn’t hold a candle to them on that. Many knew people in the system and could get any info you wanted. I give them a 10 out of 10 in that area. Talk about the top 25 private uni in the area, and you get nada. Maybe a handful each year would get in out of 700 graduates each year. Maybe one to HPY, one to MIT or other top tech school and a dozen to other highly selective schools and this was supposed to be a “good” school district with 80% of its graduates going to college. </p>
<p>I can rant for a long time in this area, and I used to really go nuts as I have this thing about expecting experts, pros to know what they are talking about, and when they say thing that are downright wrong, when I know so little about the subject, it reallly upset me greatly. </p>
<p>So my experience has not been so good with GCs. Now older, calmer, this last time, I hardly had anything to do with my son’s counselor. Just asked her to do some things and since I’m an old battle axe at the school, she did as asked and we got along very well. I did not go to the general meeting and stuck to my notes at the private meeting. I use them for what is needed in the college app process but do not expect anything more than that and I do hover over what they do. In this area, those with means tend to hire a private counselor, and I do believe that elite college admissions will pretty much require this in the future just as SAT prep courses are now the norm, something GCs and schools were scoffing as unnecessary long after it was pretty clear that they were, and now most have some tie in with a company and program for the kids in that area.</p>
<p>@Sybbie</p>
<p>I get that the GC’s role is much larger than college prep/admissions… but GC’s who treat their charges like cattle should not be tolerated.</p>
<p>In my dd’s case, her frosh year, she had not met with her GC. I had met with her twice and it dawned on me that dd needed to start building some sort of relationship/it was mid/late December. I had dd pop into her office at dismissal and ask for a meeting AFTER Christmas break. And what was GC’s response to my shy freshman? “For what?” I knew beforehand this would be her response. When dd met with her after Christmas break GC was annoyed that I was in attendance. DD asked if I would attend that morning. Whats funny is that GC actually forgot and didn’t remember until she saw me chatting with the principal.</p>
<p>Sophomore year there was an issue of a top Alg II teacher being promoted to ASST Principal. So that meant that a permanent sub would be placed in the classroom with dd… So I asked that dd be switched to the other Alg II class. I was told that she would get on it and she would get back to me. That was Friday before Labor Day weekend. I gave it a few days, realizing that GC was busy. No word. DD also said she saw GC in the hallway and never said a word to DD about the class switch. DD also announced how other kids were leaving the ALG II class and moving to the other class. Really? So I emailed her the Thursday after Labor day to ask if she was able to switch DD to the other class. No response. I was besides myself by FRIDAY afternoon, so I went to the school and popped my head into her office. She was with a student/knew I had to wait. The student exits, and some of her fellow GC’s/social worker/interns enter her office and they begin to have a lively conversation about weekend plans etc. </p>
<p>I am a patient woman and knew that if I had to, I would wait the WHOLE weekend. She finally exited, 45 minutes later, with other GC’s in tow/looked annoyed that I was still sitting there and proceeded to tell me that there was no room in the other class. WHAT? I was miffed to say the least and told her that she had to make room in the other class and a permanent substitute teacher was NOT acceptable for my dd who was a serious/motivated /straight A student . I was told that there was nothing that she could do. </p>
<p>In the midst of all of this, another GC, who is seasoned/older calls GC into her office and they both look at the computer screen. Within 10 seconds, GC walked out of the other GC’s office walks over to the printer and hands me a new schedule. A spot had been found… miraculously… really? that easily? I was overjoyed and EFFING pyssed off all at the same time… but left with smiles and gratitude… </p>
<p>Junior year brought more issues and she lied to me about dd’s transcript being updated d/t a mistake in her grades from the end of soph year. Had it not been for me investigating/following up, the wrong grade would still remain on the transcript. When I asked about having the grade changed and how we have been waiting since last July, her response was “So has everyone else and there is nothing you can do about it until Central Office is ready to change it” I asked for the contact person at Cenral Office and she taunted me as I left the guidance suite “We haven’t had any luck, you won’t either, You are wasting your time!” I quickly returned home, emailed the contact at central office(and cc’d principal & gc) who replied immediately and told me that the grade change request had NEVER been put in by the GC. EFFING PYSSED!! </p>
<p>Needless to say, the grade change happened… within the hour. :)</p>
<p>And dd’s GC was changed the NEXT day. The hand writing was on the wall for her being derelict in her duties come senior year and dd has worked too hard to let this woman, who has SO much control over her future, remain as her gc. This type of switch is extremely rare but I was not going to take no for an answer…the new gc is the more mature/seasoned of the 3 at the school. A much better fit for her…</p>
<p>I’ve witnessed a gc speak to a group of parents and say “there’s a thing called the common app now, but not many of our kids apply to those schools” and “those private schools come with a lot of loans so public colleges are more realistic.” It just saddens me that some parents walk away from those meetings not knowing of the opportunities their kids might be able to have. This is a working class high school with a lot of parents who didn’t go to college themselves. They see a school with a $50,000 price tag and say no way, but with grant aid that might have been less expensive than the local state college.</p>
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<p>Perhaps my eyes don’t work very well, but that is not what the OP said at all. The OP made two points, and only two points: 1) the GC discussion was too elementary and California college centric; 2) the GC did not apparently know about Common Data Sets.</p>
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<p>Since many California public high schools have a GC/student ratio of 600/1, that is a rather naive position, since “guidance” for the masses is just not practical. The “complaint” should be raised with the local school board who doles out the budgets and perhaps the state legislature.</p>
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<p>For the top handful of kids, maybe, but if you are making a presentation would you spend a lot of time discussing issues that only a handful might be interested in? The simple fact is that most kids do not go away to college. And when they do go away, they are generally within a half-day’s drive of home. </p>
<p>When making a preso, it’s important to know your audience. </p>
<p>btw: sybbie is one of the most valuable members on cc.</p>
<p>Our GCs were good, well a couple of them and luckily the one my Ds had. Plus we had a college counselor at the school. She was the best resource since that’s all she did. She didn’t have to worry about discipline, scheduling, the revolving door of students coming and going during the year, etc. My Ds went to magnet program in school with around 40 graduating from it each year, plus may another 30 in a magnet that was slightly less academic but still college geared…these were basically the only students (out of 400 grad class) looking beyond in-state, military, and tech schools. If your school is similar, I’m guessing that’s why OP school presentation so in-state focused.</p>
<p>I have a sophmore and junior in college and I will say I never hear of CDS when oldest was applying. Didn’t really look at it with sophmore since I was very familiar with individual schools she liked. Sadly, it is in the parents’ hands to be proactive. If you want to be helpful to all future students, offer to write up a summary of how to use CDS for the guidance counselor and maybe present it to other interested parents at some other college night. Along with similar presentation OP described our school actually had pizza application nights where students could work on applications at school with help of GC and night to help people with FAFSA, etc. Maybe ask if GC could give a presentation to students with interest in OOS schools.</p>
<p>My D went to a private college prep school in CA. There was a big emphasis on the UCs despite the fact that probably half the class went out of state. Still pretty much everyone applied to the UCs, so I can see why they did it. Our school had Naviance, so the CDS would only have been useful for a college with no track record at our HS. That’s what the GC relied on to produce suggestions, what parents were given access to, and probably why no mention was made of CDS. That makes sense to me. Frankly, for my D the CDS stats were not good predictors of where she got in. Naviance was much better.</p>
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[QUOTE<em>=Bluebayou]
btw: sybbie is one of the most valuable members on cc.
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<p>@ Blue, I don’t think anyone is questioning sybbies value… we are just discussing the issues that we have had with our childrens GC’s. I myself don’t expect anything from the GC’s. I have come to realize that the responsibility lies on my shoulders. But when issues arise that only they can handle. I expect them to act and not put my childs needs(one who causes NO problems whatsoever) to the bottom of the pile. If they can’t do what needs to be done, then move over and let me handle all of those things that the GC’s are too busy to handle… as you know, there are some things that must be left up to them! No other way around it.</p>
<p>qialah, there is a wealth of data on the common data set–it’s not just about who gets in with what stats. It has graduation rates over the years, the amount of students getting merit aid, and other important clues.</p>
<p>My D got her biggest merit aid scholarship from a school which claimed 0 merit aid in the CDS and got zero from a school that gave lots. And at least at the schools D was looking at, graduation rates weren’t an issue, but YMMV.</p>
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<p>Actually, the common data set does not look at the pool of applicants who were accepted to the school. The common data sets only look at the pool of students who matriculated to the school.</p>
<p>for example: Sections C9, C10 and C11 are the student profile</p>
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<p>Actually, the common data set does not look at the pool of applicants as a whole. . The common data sets only look at the pool of students who actually matriculated to the school.</p>
<p>for example: Sections C9, C10 and C11 are the student profile</p>
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I agree with the beginning of your statement. When parents, like myself, have a good kid… a smart kid… we never hear from the GC. Our only interaction is an annual meeting where they go over our child’s schedule… what AP/IB courses are available and when. So, yes, my view of their functions and responsibility has indeed been skewed toward that.</p>
<p>I disagree with the second part of your statement. Believe me, you made it abundantly clear how minor my child’s post secondary education is to the typical GC. I understand and appreciated your honesty. </p>
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Two things here:
- “…maneuvered the process…”? I think all I did was urge them to do their jobs.<br>
- You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said I was qualified or cared to be a GC. I was trying to convey how surprised I was at the ignorance, apathy and procrastination displayed by my son’s GC (and the whole department) with regards to the college admissions process and their associated failures.</p>
<p>
Wait… What? So… which is it? Should we, as parents, be upset with GCs who are unfamiliar/ignorant of admissions processes, requirements and deadlines? Or should be cut the GCs a break when they screw up our children’s chances at meeting ED deadlines? You can’t have it both ways.</p>
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Well… it seems my son’s HS has more than just a couple of bad ones. The uproar was intense when so many children completely missed ED/EA at their favorite schools. The high school held a meeting in the auditorium, it was billed as an explanation of what they were doing to rectify the situation. What actually happened was the parents and children were told they were over-reacting. The blame for missing ED/EA was put squarely on “Super Storm Sandy” (a half-truth at best). Everyone was essentially told to “get over it.” Nothing was lost, as everyone can still apply to their schools normally after the new year. :-</p>
<p>Again, I come from a fairly affluent Long Island community. All the GCs in my district need advanced degrees and most of the GCs have 10 years or more of experience. After ten years on the job as an electrical engineer, I knew far more than any freshly minted EE… certainly more than anyone never trained in my career.</p>
<p>So how is it that I, someone who has never been trained in a GC’s career, and after only 20 to 30 hours of research, knew more about what needed to be done for my son and when, than my son’s GC? </p>
<p>I’ll quote myself again:
“I have NOT been impressed with my son’s HS guidance department. After the relatively short time I was researching schools and the admissions process, I was astounded at how much more I knew than they about the colleges in general, what should be done and when to do it. It was a real eye opener when my son’s counselor, a veteran of at least a decade, could not add any value to our efforts.”</p>
<p>Maikai, I was a math major many years ago at college that has a top notch, rigorous math program. I was not a good student. Lost my scholarship, was the village idiot there. But i’ve maintained a lot of my math skills, particularly in high school math up to Calc 3 and am relatively proficient in Stats and prob and other areas. My husband is downright amazingly good as he is wired that way, as is my one son. I’ve yet to meet a high school math teacher, including the BC Calc teacher at a top independent school, that is as proficient as I am in the subject and I am one broken down horse, believe me. And I’ve dealt with a lot of schools, most of them considered top grade. </p>
<p>And Math is very much a closed area subject. When you are talking guidance, it is a fuzzy subject and things change all of the time. So what can one expect? It’s like expecting the schools to teach the kids to do well on the friggin’ SATs. My mother still doesn’t get why that isn’t taught at school and why I’ll be paying someone to go over it with him as I am paying for private school already. </p>
<p>Seriously, I do believe that independent college counselors are going to be the norm soon, and finding a good one of those is going to be some task too.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse,</p>
<p>I am not surprised that you, someone who majored in mathematics, would know the high school material as well as a high school math teacher. Be it AB or BC calc. It’s high school math, after all. Advanced high school math, but still high school math. </p>
<p>What <em>would</em> surprise me is if you had no mathematics training whatsoever and were able to correct the BC math teacher after teaching yourself math in your spare time over the last few weeks. That would be more analogous to my experience with our GCs.</p>
<p>As far as closed and fuzzy subjects go, if I understand where you’re going with that, my career as an EE can be considered “fuzzy.” I work for a semiconductor manufacturer. Our technology, our methods, the devices we make, the capabilities of those devices, etc… is ever changing. In my career, we reinvent ourselves and our skills every 5 or so years. It requires the constant consumption of highly technical data. It’s like being in school your entire career, except you don’t earn any advanced degrees. You just get to keep your job. Keep up or get out. </p>
<p>I’ll go out on a limb here and say the changes I need to keep up with probably make the changes in a GC’s job look like no change at all. So I have very little empathy for them in this regard. I would think their changes might even be less than what a new car salesman needs to keep up with, as they change the features and benefits of car models each year.</p>