Huge differences between FAFSA EFC and individual college Net Price Calculator EFC numbers

I’m a UC grad and I had many small seminar type, interactive classes. I particularly remember one with only 6 students, each doing independent research. For the most part, average class size was around 30-40 students, but I had at least one small class each quarter.

It’s true that the intro science classes are humongous, and many of the other intro classes are in large lecture halls, but a student coming in with a lot of AP credit can start enrolling in upper division courses right from the start. Probably easier to find small classes in social sciences and humanities, but OP said his daughter is probably looking at " something interdisciplinary, like History of Science, or Ethics and Society" - so she’ll find those smaller classes.

But her preference for an LAC might be something to consider in choosing a campus. A campus that are perceived as less selective, such as UCSC, might be more likely to provide opportunities for more student/faculty interaction, and it’s residential college system also tends to foster more of a small college identity.

My son thought he wanted a small LAC and turned down Berkeley for a college that promises almost all small seminar type classes. He found that got old rather quickly – he complained to me that the same students would be essentially repeating the same ideas week after week, and after awhile the discussion/seminar format was frustrating because so much class time would be occupied by discussion – in some classes, he would have liked an opportunity to hear more from the professor. (My son lasted 2 years – graduated 7 years down the line from a CSU after working a few years and then transferring.)

Other than the financial considerations, I think OP’s daughter is going to get into colleges on her list – I’d be very confident of her likely admission to Smith or Bryn Mawr. (It definitely gives a student a leg up in admissions when everyone with a Y chromosome is eliminated from the application pool).

OP- good luck to you. Your d sounds amazing and I know you only want what’s best for her.

I get where you are coming from. Two thoughts though-

1- Don’t conflate “reputation” with what the guy at the dry cleaner thinks about a particular college. You and your D are clearly looking for an academic experience at college-- which of course is what college is for. But that sometimes means forgoing “reputation” as it is commonly known. Just an example (which doesn’t apply to your D, so maybe you’ll see my point)-- Missouri M&T (used be known as “Rolla” among recruiters) has a superb program in Mechanical Engineering. No- it’s not Cal Tech or MIT. But it is FAR superior to a number of private U’s with engineering school, and insanely cheaper, especially if you are a Missouri resident which you are not. I pretty much guarantee you that most of the folks in your highly educated/affluent community/insanely competitive HS will not have heard of it, and will think you have lost your mind if you think it’s a terrific program in ME.

But grad schools know it. Employers know it. There’s a reason why Boeing and Sikorsky and GE and a slew of other companies from both coasts shlep out there every recruiting season.

My point-- for your D- a college like Bryn Mawr which I personally think is a fantastic institution filled with terrific faculty, is going to be just as “unknown” somewhere to someone in her life as Rolla is to the mechanical engineer. So as I scan your list, it DOES seem to be a bit focused on the “known quantity/man in the street” type of colleges- which is fine. But since there are so many of them, dumping a couple of the mega selective famous ones for an LAC which is a rock solid safety AND has a terrific reputation for academics might not be a terrible idea.

2- Time to walk away from the spreadsheets (except for the financial piece- that continues up until next August when you get the bill). Your D needs 2 or 3 Adcom’s to feel her personality and her presence from her application, and that doesn’t come from an appreciation of the student/faculty ratio (a number which is demonstrably false at many small colleges- it counts emeritus faculty with dementia who sit in their office one day a month, it counts faculty out on maternity leave who are not teaching that year, etc.) Your comment that admissions is random and unpredictable is also not true. What IS true, is that your D’s stats are likely to get her in to 2 or 3 schools on her list. And a lack of precisely targeted “here’s why you want me” is likely going to get her denied and at least 4 schools on the list.

Again-- if your D can make it work at one of the California publics and it will be affordable, then have at it (although spending this much money on applications seems lunacy to me). And I think Smith and Bryn Mawr look like very solid options. But there are colleges which will find her tales of the gap year fun and irreverent and lovable and they will want her very badly… and other colleges which will decide “another upper middle class kid from XYZ, took a year to find herself, yawn”. I’d be dumping some of those…

Middlebury? a phenomenal place filled with serious students in a gorgeous setting. It is a pain to get to from California, and so freaking rural that kids look forward to watching the bus zoom up and down route 7 a few times a day. If she wants a city, I’d be knocking that off the list.

Again, your D sounds fabulous.

That information is available. You may have to dig. Sometimes it requires a little out-of-the-box thinking. But it’s out there.

But you have to start from figuring out what distinguishes the applicant and then target – it’s not about which college the applicant likes best, it’s the other way around – which colleges are most likely to appreciate the unique qualities the applicant offers. Harvard isn’t a good example because when a college gets down into the single digit admissions, then it really does get to the point where the ad coms are looking harder for reasons to reject than for reasons to admit.

But with my daughter it was pretty clear to me how to target. My D wanted to apply to Brown - but I refused to pay the admission fee, because I knew she didn’t stand a chance of admission. She applied anyway (got a fee waiver). And was rejected, as I expected. (Out of two kids and more than 20 college apps it was the only outright rejection we ever saw … waitlists were a lot more common.) But if my daughter had wanted to apply to Yale, I would have encouraged her. It would have been tough, but I think that her essay and her lopsided transcript/experiences would have been appealing to Yale. Why? Because my daughter had a background and interest in studying an area where Yale was having a problem attracting students & majors, whereas Brown was not experiencing similar difficulties. I could identify which colleges were under-subscribed in that particular discipline fairly easily. Some were so seriously under-subscribed that they were dropping the department – but that wasn’t an option with a university with an already strong department with tenured faculty and PhD students. So I went to web sites and counted up faculty and compared that against enrollment figures.

In addition to academic interests, my DD was a dancer with a very strong background, very talented, but she didn’t want to major in dance. A long time ago, when she was still in high school, I asked on a CC thread for suggestions of schools with dance departments that were mediocre – that is, schools were my DD would be viewed as someone whose ability was impressive (as opposed to audition-based BFA programs where my DD’s talent would be unremarkable). (Ended up I misjudged on that one – turned out that my DD was quite welcome at an LAC with a very strong dance department – I now know that a strong dance background is an admissions plus for just about any applicant to that particular school.) But this strategy is essentially the same as an athlete who is not really good enough for Div I recruiting, but strong enough to attract attention at Div III level schools.

Now I certainly can see the possibility that even though your DD is tremendously capable and accomplished that her particular talents might not be ones that are so readily translated into a college sales pitch. So that does make a harder case for you-- but it still doesn’t translate to admissions being random and unpredictable.

When I am saying it is not unpredictable, I don’t mean that it’s a lock. If there is a 90% chance of admission, that’s still a 10% chance of not being admitted. Here I am talking about the student-specific chances – not the published across-the-board data – that is, Harvard might admit 5% of applicants, but a student with a 2.9 high school GPA and 1160 SAT has a 0 percent chance of admission – whereas all of those class valedictorians with SATs over 1550 are coming in with significantly better than 5% chance (let’s hypothesize 15% chance), even though the majority will also probably be rejected. My DD is a Barnard grad. At the time she applied the admit rate was roughly 25% - thought her chances were 50% or better (even though someone in the business of college advising told me that she didn’t stand a chance with her test scores – but I knew that person was mistaken simply from CDS data – my daughter ended up being one of the 25% of entering students with test scores in the bottom quartile. Math is math.)

Back to my Brown/Yale example. I thought D’s chances at Brown were 0. Her test scores sucked and she didn’t have anything to offer that would have made her special in Brown’s eyes. She applied and was rejected. I thought her chances at Yale would have been in the 20-30% range of admission. Her test scores still sucked, but she had something shiny to dangle in front of the ad com-- something that the school really wanted. Would that have been enough – probably not, but at least worth the cost of the admission fee. But DD wasn’t interested in Yale, so my theory remains untested.

So what I am saying is that you can figure out which college offer better odds of admission to a particular individual – and focus on applying to those colleges. If your DD only applies to colleges where her particular odds of admission (based on factors you can articulate) are 50% or better, her chances are going to be better than if she applies to colleges where her chances are no better than 10%. Your DD’s test scores and GPA put her in the top quartile wherever she applies, and gap year is another plus factor – so right there she is a leg up on published admit rates. I see her biggest problem, outside of the schools with single-digit admit rates, is the yield protection I mentioned above. Would she really attend Bowdoin if admitted? From the college list she submitted, I don’t see it happening… and Bowdoin doesn’t care about her test scores. All it tells them is that they’ve got an applicant who is likely to be cross-admitted to a dozen of its peer institutions. For them, an applicant with strong academics but no scores or an iffy submitted score (such as a weak score on one subtest) is more likely to be a future enrollee in the RD round – some great student who is likely out of the running at Williams.

Bob – I really disagree with the posters who seem to scoff at the idea of the UC’s as a safety – you’ve said your daughter is pretty much amenable to all sorts of environments. I think she would thrive a UC and probably knows it.

I don’t think the east-coasters really get California culture. I think most high-achieving California kids see the UC’s as an acceptable, default option – and when they look at more expensive privates, then the school need to offer something extra that the UC’s don’t. The LAC environment is one such extra. Whereas a large private research university – say, for example, Columbia --may not.

But your daughter’s private list includes several schools that certainly are not LAC-like environments. If she would be willing to attend Harvard, she’ll do fine at Berkeley and might find the climate preferable at UCLA – and might even be happier at one of the other campuses if “cutthroat” is a negative.

I don’t think that if your DD was unwilling or unhappy to attend a UC that she would have applied to 7. The guaranteed admission system works for an application to only 1 campus – and multiple applications could be pricey - my kids only applied to 3 each – a list of 7 suggests that there are only 2 that your daughter might be truly unwilling or unhappy to attend.

I agree with you that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to pay mega dollars more for a small private college that can’t compete with the UC system in terms of reputation or resources. My deal with my kids was that they had to apply to the UC system and that I would pay whatever it would cost to attend the most expensive UC (after consideration of financial aid) at any college. So they needed to get finaid awards from the UC’s for comparison, but if they could get a match from a private college they would have had guaranteed parental support. It didn’t quite work out that way but I was willing to dig and pay more for colleges that I perceived to worth paying extra for. As much as I am a fan of the College that Change Lives list… many of those schools just wouldn’t have been worth the extra dollars (as confirmed by my D’s impressions after an overnight at Goucher).

I think there is often a big confusion on CC, among both parents and students, between wants and needs. There are some criteria for college selection that are absolutes. Others that fall into the “it would be nice if” category, It would be unrealistic to expect a safety to come with all those extras – but certainly those are going to be what makes schools at the top of the student’s wish list the most attractive.

I agree with Calmom. The UCs offer excellent educations. And for instate students they are an excellent value too.

I just think the current list is way too long (the 20 additional,schools). I think that list could be cut more than in half.

Calmom- I’m on the East Coast and I think I “get” the UC culture reasonably well (except for Santa Cruz which I confess I don’t understand).

I agree with virtually everything you’ve said- I don’t know why someone in California would pay big dollars (if money were an issue) for Middlebury or Bowdoin (both fantastic schools) for a kid who doesn’t want rural and has a UC admission in the back pocket. Smith is also not exactly urban although it’s in a cute town with a lot of college type stuff to do; etc. So both the length of the list and the “we’ve researched this really well and she knows what she wants” concerns me.

But at the end of the day- this kid can only attend one college. So getting into 7 and making a choice vs. getting into 3 and making a choice ends up in the same way although possibly not in the same place.

But agree that judicious “who is going to want me” is a lot more helpful at this stage of the game then “who do I love the most”.

The OP’s D is in the best situation to reality test her choices- if no kid with stats like hers as ever been admitted to XYZ college- well, that’s a datapoint. If kids just like her- including a few legacies (which presumably this super HS has had in the past) get rejected from Harvard in great numbers- that’s another datapoint.

But a few selective applications to places which really bond with the D on paper- I think that’s the ticket.

OP- you are tired of all of us by now. Merry Christmas- we are all trying to save you from the hundreds of dollars on applications, score sending, and aggravation that inevitably sets in as the deadlines loom and parents ask themselves, “What’s one more application when we’ve spent so much already?”

What’s not to understand about Santa Cruz?


I think the daughter’s stats as OP has provided are good enough for any college, so not a useful data point. (Far more useful, in my opinion, with a kid like my D.with weaker stats, because then the stats can be used to rule a few colleges out). But the problem is that the decisions at the schools she is looking at aren’t’ based on stats – stats are just what gets the person in the door. I think that’s why the OP perceives the process as random – he can see the stats, but he can’t see or know the information that that ad com sees. And why those of us with some experience under our belts have a better sense of what the colleges might be seeing. (I know why my daughter with a 28 ACT was accepted at Barnard & Chicago but waitlisted at Brandeis and BU – I know what it is she offered the colleges, and what it is she lacked. The ACT score was irrelevant-- but that is the data point that is viewed as all important on CC).

At this point, I think the daughter will get into at least one of the UC’s, so the remaining 20 schools should be compared to the UC. Let’s say OP’s daughter will get into Cal. Would she go to Grinnell over Cal? If the answer is no, then cross Grinnell off. Would she go to Middlebury over UCLA? Again, if it’s a no, then cross that off.

Question: What is BWRK??? I have never heard this term.

Well, I am glad not everyone thinks I am delusional. Some of you understand why, as a California parent with a kid who is guaranteed a UC, I am more selective about which privates I am willing to pay top dollar for. In any case, the final list of ten schools has been determined. It only includes her favorite colleges, the ones she fell in love with during her multiple visits and many interactions over two years. They like the fact that she is unusual and colorful, has diverse interests, and is – well, quirky is the term they like to use a lot. Okay, I confess, she’s also applying to my alma mater because she’s been hearing my tall tales ad nauseam since she was a tot. And I gave her the first college t-shirt when she was four. Anyway, we could care less about generic acceptance rates. We believe she is a good match for each of these schools. Beyond this, the process is out of our control. We shall find out how things turn out come April 1. All she needs is one.

And if she gets ten rejection letters, so be it. (Mind you, this is coming from a Harvard alum.) She’ll be kicking back on the beach, watching the sunset over the Pacific in FEBRUARY, while the rest of the country is freezing over. Maybe she’ll be studying Psychology at UCLA to work towards understanding how to better treat adolescent mood disorders. Maybe she’ll study Cognitive Science & Neuroscience at UC San Diego or UC Irvine to understand how the brain works. Maybe gazing at the stars at UC Santa Cruz, so that she can be an astrophysicist some day. Maybe testing water samples and SCUBA diving off the coast of UC Santa Barbara to be a marine biologist. Maybe grappling with the issues of Environmental Policy and Planning at UC Davis in order to go head to head against the Trump administration one day. Or maybe examining the history of Europe between WW I and WW II, the rise of fascism, and the origins of the Holocaust at UC Berkeley.

Thanks for all the advice. Now I have one piece of advice to all of you: you should be grateful that in the US, our children have so many choices. In many countries, your college and major are chosen for you, based on your scores on one common examination. If you don’t like, too bad. So kids adapt and find happiness wherever they are because they consider themselves fortunate. For example, in countries like India with a population of over 1 billion. If you want your kids to be happy, teach them to be flexible. There is no such thing as a perfect match. They can have preferences, likes and dislikes. But they also need to know that happiness comes from your attitude towards life, and how you accept your present circumstances. Life happens, so the question is, how will you respond to it?

OP signing off.

Oh, and to Christians out there, have a merry Christmas! (We’re Buddhist, but we love Christmas carols – not the department store kind, but the old classics. And Handel’s Messiah. You get the point.)

BWRK = bright, well-rounded kid.

@LVKris - Thanks. And why is that a “thing” exactly? I’m guessing it’s another cynical term invented by the same people who invented “Tiger Mom”.

OP, you seem to think that you know which schools like her. You don’t. It is an admissions officer’s job to get her to apply, and they give off a positive vibe most of the time at most schools. Patents are often flattered by this, but it is often a marketing exercise for the school, not a real thing. You can’t honestly have any idea if they plan to accept her until the acceptance arrives.

I’m with you, intparent. This isn’t about bright-eyed and engaging in person. The rubber hits the road in the app and supps. Plenty of nice kids, even delightful top performers, fail to make an adequate presentation in those.

We are not predicting failure for this kid. We’re saying it takes more than an upbeat attitude about probability and uniqueness.

@intparent : Sorry, did I give off the impression I know what admissions officers are thinking? Of course admissions officers are trying to flatter us. They want to increase the applicant pool and lower the acceptance rate. Great for rankings. However, they’re not the ones we care about when looking for the top choices. We were looking for the ones with students she wants to spend four years living with because they would accept, respect, and collaborate with her; faculty she might want to learn from because they are helpful and encouraging; dining halls with halfway decent food; campuses with beautiful surroundings and vibrant communities; and the presence of and funding of decent music programs. She also tried to understand the values of each college, and tried to understand if their practices were consistent with their values (and her values). What else would you suggest she base her decisions on? Trying to guess what the different college admissions want, like what many have suggested, is a futile exercise. We can try our best, but going crazy over that is ridiculous. Either they take her for what she is or they don’t. I see no reason for her to be inauthentic.

This was entertaining and enlightening. After reading the posts in this thread, I found the theories and assumptions people have formed in their minds amusing. No one has a clue who my daughter is or what she wants (or thinks she wants, since few 18-year-olds really know what they want). That list of 20 really set off this thread on a tangent. (I thought it was about financial aid.) Everyone assumed that just because I was doing a financial analysis of these colleges and started with a broad list that somehow, my daughter would apply to all twenty.

Well, I thought I should leave you with the list of colleges my daughter has actually applied to (yes, she has hit submit; her essays and supplements were written a month ago, and school documents and test scores had already been mailed to the schools). You can validate your assumptions.
Mission Impossible, in order of our estimated net price, low to high (since this is a financial forum):

Harvard College
Smith College
Amherst College
Swarthmore College
Williams College
Haverford College
Bowdoin College
Scripps College
Carleton College
Bryn Mawr College
Pomona College

(My comment on Whitman threw people off, didn’t it? She likes nature and idyllic surroundings. Notice some of the schools on this list. I just need a way to get there from SFO. I thought Walla Walla was harder to get to, but it turns out it’s not too bad. Flights to SEA, connecting to ALW. Oh well, she will not apply to a school she hasn’t visited or interacted with extensively, safety or not. BTW, Whitman’s estimated financial aid package for us is awesome. Go figure.)

LOL. The only research uni is Harvard. B-)

@circuitrider : That’s right. :slight_smile: Fooled everyone. And only because it’s my alma mater. She has no choice, I’ve been brainwashing her since age 2. It’s not her first choice though. She LOVES Pomona and the other LACs. They really do offer a superb undergraduate education. I wouldn’t trade my four years in Cambridge for the world, but I think I would have liked going to a school like that.

You came out here asking about cost. Now that you have pulled back the curtain to finally reveal where she is applying, what do the NPCs show for these schools? Are they affordable for your family or not? Which ones are and which ones aren’t solely by the NPCs?

I find it “amusing,” lol, that you find us amusing. Every so often, a thread pulls more savvy posters than usual. And on occasion, an OP’s response is a bit hard to translate.

But this latest list makes more sense.