<p>mimi, sorry if I missed your point.</p>
<p>It's neither can't nor want--it's a matter of trying to keep the total budget under control. For better or worse Iraq is what it is and will be funded. That leaves less for the rest of government and every agency has to tighten their belts some. Most states went through sharp budget cuts a few short years ago but survived and now enjoy surpluses and are funding things that had to wait before. Here are last years Washington state school tuition rates--VERY reasonable and affordable. Even with an increase for 2006.</p>
<p>PS I did not say the federal gov does not provide loans--I said states operate and fund the colleges and provide substantial aid on their own. The only colleges run by the feds are the service academies and some DC colleges.</p>
<p>It's neither can't nor want--it's a matter of trying to keep the total budget under control. For better or worse Iraq is what it is and will be funded. That leaves less for the rest of government and every agency has to tighten their belts some. Most states went through sharp budget cuts a few short years ago but survived and now enjoy surpluses and are funding things that had to wait before. Here are last years Washington state school tuition rates--VERY reasonable and affordable. Even with an increase for 2006</p>
<hr>
<p>You dodge the question of how to balance or keep the budget under control. What to cut; what to fund. Also on Iraq it isn't just "what it is", sort of like the law of gravity. It is a choice and it can be undone. In fact last I saw 2/3 want to set a deadline to get out and a growing 31% say "now".</p>
<p>I knew Mimi was a bohemian but La Jew,..</p>
<p>Think Bohemian Rhapsody. But I have long been among the "silent Hasidim" (Quakers). </p>
<p>"Here are last years Washington state school tuition rates--VERY reasonable and affordable."</p>
<p>Not so affordable when the median family income is around $42k, and you are well below it.</p>
<p>Between Pell and Washington state grants there is adequate financial aid for those with lower incomes in Washington. If needed small loans can make up any gap. </p>
<p>The maximum grant for a individual from a family of 3 with an income of $30k is $4,774. UW estimates the cost of attendance at $17,200. Within this family of 3, the one attending college is also likely contributing to the family's income. </p>
<p>No wonder the number of low-income applicants at UDub is declining rapidly while the community colleges are filled to the gills. It's great that the cc's exist, of course, though for certain specialties (like nursing) it is easier to get admitted to UW than to the cc's. The rub is the difficulty in transfers, as UW has now decided chasing after OOS students is a higher priority than providing an education to low-income students from in-state.</p>
<p>mini is right.</p>
<p>One of the biggest changes in higher ed from my day (horse and buggy...) to now is the economic stratification of state supported higher ed. The affordability crisis, especially for the flagship state colleges, is real. Just consider the example here. $17,000 subtract $5,000 in aid leaves $12,000. For a middle class family making $60,000 per year, that's not peanuts. So, they either go to the "lesser" state colleges, at lower cost, or the community colleges. This is pretty well documented.</p>
<p>Yes, tell me that they can go to private colleges for less etc. True enough if the kid is an academic star. Most aren't. Most are pretty normal academically average kids. </p>
<p>Not many of these folks hang out on CC. Just as well, I guess, as we'd just criticize the daylights out of them for not having worked harder for a scholarship or something.</p>
<p>Blossom- For the record I am neither in denial nor have I ever been referred to as dense (let alone quite dense) by anyone who knows me. But you're certainly entitled to your opinion.</p>
<p>I am not denying we have been fortunate in that we have not been hit with ill health or an enron type financial disaster, but it is a ridiculous assumption on your part to assume that a career leading to the top hasnt had its share of setbacks or difficulties, or that anyone escapes life completely unscathed. I just dont ascribe those things to luck, good or bad. Its just life.</p>
<p>During my senior year in hs, my brother had a near fatal car accident which left him permanently brain injured, and my folks tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Hence my switch to state u. So I lived exactly the kind of event you spoke of. And survived. And yes, my parents felt badly. But it was what it was. </p>
<p>According to the CollegeBoard, the median state u tuition and fees is about $5400 per year. If you borrow the entire amount the difference in interest is about $6 a month. Times 4 yrs your loan payments will cost about an extra $24 a month (assuming 10 yr loan). If you decide to live on campus, or go to a private school and borrow 20k a yr, the monthly difference is about $20. Again times 4 your loan payments will now cost you an extra $80 per month. Call me crazy, but I just dont see the ladder being pulled up over the interest rate change.</p>
<p>I realize that 20k in loans per year, times 4, makes for hefty loan payments in total. But you dont have to borrow 80k to get a diploma, or even a decent education. Nor do I believe the state u difference in payments requires anyone to opt for secretarial school instead and thats just the kind of comment that fuels the fire. </p>
<p>I havent callously assumed anything except that much of the trouble stems from parent's emotions when they have to tell their kids they cant have what they want. And when it comes to education, thats an awful place to be. I do sympathize. </p>
<p>But as far as I know the social contract you refer to means making higher education available not higher private education, not the residential campus experience, and not the school of your choice. </p>
<p>As a personal aside, we did have the rug pulled out from under us by my husbands previous employer in 2005, and youre right, it sucks. It wasnt fair. But life isnt fair, and while I thought my heart would break from having to again tell my dd who had been in 6 schools already that she had to relocate mid way thru her senior yr, it didnt. Neither did she. And the next time (and I know there will be one because thats the way life works) she has a difficult situation she has to make the best of I hope shell look back on this, and the early lessons in resilience will help.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Nor do I believe the state u difference in payments requires anyone to opt for secretarial school instead
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe the poster of this comment needs to do some calculations. Maybe the poster can tell me how a middle class family making $60,000 per year can afford even $12,000 per year per kid (perish the thought that they spaced the kids to closely!)? That's 20% of their GROSS income. Borrow? Then how to pay it back? Let's assume the family and kid can actually afford $2,000 out of pocket. That leaves $40,000 over four years to finance. Using combined stafford and plus loans, paid back over ten years, MONTHLY payments will be $480.67.</p>
<p>That may not sound like a lot to a poster whose hubby makes a few grand per WEEK, but to a family making 60 grand per year, that's 9.6% of the family gross income.</p>
<p>OK, tell me about how much more the kid will make and how that's affordable.....yea, right.</p>
<p>No, sarap, these kids may not end up in secretarial school, but I bet you they end up at the local CC. Maybe if they're lucky, they can commute and go part time to a nearby third tier 4 year institution (you know, the ones that have virtually no permanent faculty teaching classes, using only adjuncts that never hold office hours when a poor working kid can attend....maybe you don't know about that world?)</p>
<p>I agree it is difficult to figure out how to come up with the $12,000- $13,000 that a family making $60,000 will have to spend on college.
They will need to spend that whether the child attends an instate public school or is academically talented enough to qualify for 100% need at a private school.</p>
<p>We knocked down the expenditure a bit by having our daughter earn $3,000 summers that went toward tuition to bring it down to $10,000
Then we scraped up enough to reduce it by $2,000 more- but that still left $8,000 that we had to borrow.
Then of course when you are borrowing every year, you still are paying back for the previous year.( difficult to do when you only make $60,000 with a lot of overtime, which you can't count on)</p>
<p>Our state did offer small merit award as did the instate college, which would have made the cost a couplel thousand less, but we decided that the expense was worth it. ( if the state has made a commitment to a larger award, to make more of a difference- she might have attended an instate school- but even though her academic background was very attractive to the instate schools, only one offered her any merit awards- and it wasn't large)</p>
<p>When you have a child that won't be applying to schools that meet 100% of need it gets even more difficult.</p>
<p>While we could again scrape up EFC by borrowing for her to attend instate public schools, we don't feel that that will be the best learning environment for her, and neither does she.
However, for her to attend either an out of state public school, or a private school that limits need based aid ( since I doubt she will qualify for much merit), might be easily double our EFC.
( and when you are attending community college as part of your high school curriculum, you want a different environment once you get your diploma)</p>
<p>For the sake of discussion, here is the cost of attending UMass-Amherst, instate, not counting books and other such expenditures:
Instate
Tuition & Fees $9,595
Room & Board $6,990
Total $16,585 </p>
<p>Out-of-state costs is estimated at $26k+. </p>
<p>We cannot assume that students are eligible for scholarships, or can reduce the length of college attendance through APs. So, using EK's calculation, summer and academic year earnings would reduce the cost to $11-12k. Over four years, assuming no increase in COA (obviously an inaccurate assumption), a family would have to borrow $48k for one child.</p>
<p>Newmassdad: First, I was one of those commuting to state school, scheduling classes around my work schedule. The good side of the lack of great faculty in some areas was that grad students tended to teach stright from the book...making attendance not as mandatory, which for a kid working full time is a good thing!</p>
<p>Now, for the math. First, kid works fulltime the 13 weeks of summer (and this assumes he hasn't worked before and started saving). Oughta get 3 k out of that, and a part time even 8 hr a week job on campus should take care of extra living expenses at school (that's what my dd does) combined with work at break.</p>
<p>First yr parents pay the 12k loan (don't borrow less by using kids earnings), monthly payments total $1635. Tax credit of $1500 and $635 loan interest deduction (saving $104 in tax) offset in total the payments.</p>
<p>Second yr kid uses part of first summers earning to bridge gap btwn tax savings (1500 credit + 208 savings from interest) Total loan payments = 3270 minus tax benefits = $1562. Kid still has $1440, and can now add the 3k from a second summer.</p>
<p>Third yr...same plan. Loan payments total 4905, minus tax benes which now total 1812, means kid owes 3093. 1440 from first summer, 1653 from second pays the bill. Kid has 1347 left from second summer, plus 3k from third.</p>
<p>Finally...the last yr. total payments due = 6540. Minus tax benes = $4622 from kid. Good news is kid is only $275 short. For the sake of argument lets assume mom and dad can help. </p>
<p>I used the Hope credit limit for all 4 yrs, but actually the lifetime learning credit is 2k (and the hope can only be used two yrs). This also assumes no subsidized loans which would obviously reduce costs during the college yrs.</p>
<p>Yes, I know the kid is an extra 8 k in debt. But he went to the school of his choice, got the campus experience, parents still have equity in their house etc. and can hopefully retire on schedule.</p>
<p>For the first six years the student will pay roughly 545 a month, year 7 409, year 8 393, year 9 136, assuming he can't get them paid off sooner. The interest will stll be deductible meaning a net out of pocket that is slightly lower.</p>
<p>If a family earning 60k a year wants to pay the bill in fulll and not leave themselves or their child with debt, then maybe commuting to state u is what needs to happen, or cc and transfer.</p>
<p>If a family earning 60k a year wants to pay the bill in fulll and not leave themselves or their child with debt, then maybe commuting to state u is what needs to happen, or cc and transfer.</p>
<p>As a family who barely makes $60,000 on a good year ( we make $20,000 more than we did 30 years ago), let me introduce you to our reality.
We are able to put only minimum into retirement savings.
We have had to take equity out of our house to live on, during periods of unemployment.
( And when take home is only $700 a week, it is pretty difficult to put any back into savings when a 900sq ft house is $450,000 and every year your medical ins pays less)
The tax breaks we get at end of the year go toward maybe getting our roof repaired- making our wiring legal- or maybe even painting our house- it doesnt go to a college fund.
Community college as others have pointed out, are unfortunately not an option either. the state Universities do not have space for students with two year certificates- even with GPAs of 3.9
We do not have enough seats for all students who could benefit from a college education & we do not make it a reachable goal, for those who are not able to go into debt to help thier kids go to college</p>
<p>commuting to state school is okay if you live near said state school, otherwise, at UMass-Amherst, it's $7k per year.
So let's assume student has to live on campus. Minimum COA is $16585. Plus books, it's conservatively $17k.</p>
<p>Student summer job brings in $3k.
20 hours a week at $10 per hour for 30 weeks: $6k
Total before taxes: $9k.
Need to borrow: $8k.<br>
Sarap's calculations include tax deductions but not interest on loan and taxes levied on earnings. Somebody care to calculate them?</p>
<p>Why does everyone assume we are talking about "kids"? The average undergraduate college student in the United States is 24 1/2.</p>
<p>"Community college as others have pointed out, are unfortunately not an option either. the state Universities do not have space for students with two year certificates- even with GPAs of 3.9"</p>
<p>The universities have plenty of space, if they wanted to use it that way. They've chosen to use the space for well-to-do OOS transfers.</p>
<p>Actually Marite, the interest on the loans is included in the annual required payment amounts. (A 12k loan for 10 yrs at 6.5% interest has a $136.26 monthly principal and interest payment, or $ 1635 annually) </p>
<p>For kids earnings, I assumed net after tax summer earnings of 3 k (gross using your $10/hr would be $5200 for fulltime, working 13 weeks..a student earning 9k annually would pay $689 in SS/Med tax, and $403 in Fed income tax, thus reducing that 9k to $7908 before state income tax)</p>
<p>The difference is that I suggested using the kids earnings NOT to reduce tuition but to cover the required monthly payments on a higher loan amount. For the first yr the tax benes for the parents cover the annual payments on the first 12k loan. Subsequent yrs use the tax benes as well but because of the increasing loan amounts you now need to start using the summer money to cover the difference.</p>
<p>I used Newmassdad's numbers as a jumping point- and he wanted to know how a family could come up with 12 k a year and make the payments. It might work up to a few thousand more, but I don't believe it will work on the full 17k, since at least some money the student earns thru the school year will be needed for other things.</p>
<p>It's not a perfect solution, but it is a suggestion for a family who can't afford any extra monthly outflow, when the student is willing to work and assume the debt upon graduation.</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>Do we have a breakdown of the students who are over 22? Some may be going part-time, some may be working adults taking Extension classes, some may be returning students. These would be students who do not rely on parental contributions.</p>
<p>so are you saying that the average college student does something else after graduation from high school for 6 years before he/she scrapes up enough for college or are you adding in all those people who stopped college after couple years but then found that they cant advance in their jobs without it at 36?</p>
<p>mini:</p>
<p>sounds like the situation in the Great State of Washington is its own doing.....the Trustees should stop accepting Californians! :)</p>
<p>But, more to the point of this thread, if the Great State of Washington chooses to deny its own community college kids seats at UDub, why should it be a federal responsibility to ameliorate? [In this case, federal responsibility is below market interest loans.]</p>