Humanities grad school -- "don't do it"

Parents Forum
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<p>JHS, I’m not saying it means anything in particular. I actually very much doubt that it does, by itself. It’s just a counter-example to the assertions I’ve so often heard that X is easier to achieve, and far more common, than Y. It’s hard to deny that there are a lot of math/science types (immature ones, to be sure!) who love to lord it over, and sneer at, humanities types.</p>

<p>And I freely admit that I am way too defensive about this, and shouldn’t care at all!</p>

<p>I agree about Anne Frank, by the way, and perhaps I overstated the case. But I still don’t think there are true “prodigies” in literature in quite the same way that there are in math and music. And chess, I suppose.</p>

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<p>the article doesn’t go far enough - humanities should be considered an undergrad minor, unless you’ve got money in the family or know how to live poor. an anachronism.</p>

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<p>So true, Donna. But post his poem and I’ll post one of my son. My most current major poem has been translated into twelve languages, and is in an anthology published in China but I didn’t see a penny from it, nor will I.</p>

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<p>Prodigies in literature as compared to math, music:</p>

<p>JHS makes a good point about Anne Frank. Peaking or being recognized fairly early is actually one factor in Poetic “genius” (if there is such a thing, and it does seem possible, despite the fact that the “po’ biz” is about 9 parts self-promotion and connections to 1 part giftedness with words)…</p>

<p>Arthur Rimbaud, truly great French poet, wrote almost everything that he is still know for today before he turned 22…</p>

<p>John Keats, dead at 25…</p>

<p>William Butler Yeats, two widely recognized books by about age 25…</p>

<p>On the OP subject of grad school in the humanities: many students go into Doctoral programs because they will get a stipend, teach, take classes. It’s not a bad, semi-structured life, at least for a while. The most successfull (and highest paid, and most widely published) people that graduated with PhDs of my cohort did all they could to finish as quickly as possible. There’s something to be said for that route. It also means that a person could be out and on the job market, or onto Plan B, or Plan C, before their 30th birthday. It takes discipline and strategy, however. Many’s the time that students plan or expect to do this but they find out in grad school that they actually can’t write very well, or they don’t really know what they want to work on, or they can’t find someone to work with (etc).</p>

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<p>Oh dear. Math ability does tend to peak early, see the fabulous novel THE MIND BODY PROBLEM for the lasting results of this.</p>

<p>I would not consider Anne Frank’s diary great literature, and apart from its Holocaust connection, I doubt anyone would still read it.</p>

<p>I am sure some of Keats’ early doodlings were great poems since he stopped at 24 leaving behind arguably the best poems in the English language.</p>

<p>I do think some of Mozart’s early work remarkable, and my son, a bit of a budding music historian, tells me it is.</p>

<p>But so what? Mozart grew up in a musical family. He had been immersed in his instrument since two.</p>

<p>What are we arguing here?</p>

<p>I think there is nothing to be gained from denigrating great achievement in any area – A Rod included, and even poor, beleaguered Tiger Woods.</p>

<p>The double helix is as beautiful as the Taj Mahal for sure, and although it may be more useful in eventually curing a multitude of inherited diseases (or in its role to pointing to the genome mapping) the Taj Mahal will continue to inspire human imagination.</p>

<p>The argument always seems to come down to the question of whether we are merely material beings or material/spiritual beings. I believe the later, and so I believe the Humanities have a vital place in our lives. Were we merely material beings, a collection of chemicals and mechanistic responses, I can see that the Humanities would seem less germane although their very existence would then be problematical.</p>

<p>A table that eventually shows that Humanities folks score lower on GRE’s (not all of us) was bound to surface on this thread. Sure. Whatever. Bring it on.</p>

<p>I think it’s interesting that Einstein began his work with a “thought experiment” – the idea of riding on a sun beam. The math came later.</p>

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<p>Knowing how to “live poor”–i.e. be frugal and live BELOW your means–is an anachronism now?</p>

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<p>the anachronism is encouraging kids to focus their college educations on the study of humanities. great talent does what it does (“those that can, do…etc”). the rest - PhD notwithstanding - are just better educated members of the audience. can’t make a living there.</p>

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<p>^That presupposes that the primary purpose of (undergraduate) college is to become credentialed for making a living. My own opinion on the matter is on the fence, but certainly not everyone will agree with your assumption.</p>

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<p>The late Jim Carole’s book Basketball Diaries, which he wrote at 16, was nominated for a Pulitzer.</p>

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<p>Deliberate practice (not innate talent) has been identified as the key determinate of extraordinary expertise across all disciplines. And this includes child prodigies. Some areas may simply lend themselves to more readily to practicing at earlier ages than others. </p>

<p>For an early report: <a href=“http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf[/url]”>http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>For a later treatment see: [The</a> Cambridge handbook of expertise … - Google Books](<a href=“The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance - Google Books”>The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance - Google Books)</p>

<p>(And perhaps more of interest to readers of this forum: Plant, E. A., Ericsson, K. A., Hill, L., & Asberg, K. (2005). Why study time does not predict grade point average across college students: Implications of deliberate practice for academic performance. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 30, 96-116.)</p>

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<p>Very true. Taking a more recent example, people always express surprise at the fact that Jhumpa Lahiri won the Pulitzer for ‘Interpreter of Maladies’ when she was in her early 30s (32?). Well, according to her own account, she had been immersed in writing since she was 9 and she also has SEVERAL graduate degrees to back that up; it shows how much work she put into it including a PhD and several Master’s degrees. According to her, she finally got recognition for something she has worked on for ages and not just in colleges and Universities. She was constantly improving her craft.</p>

<p>Anyway, I digress. The point is, even people like Tiger Woods and A-Rod are geniuses in their own field and one is not better than the other.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it is time to repost this very insightful address by occupational sociologist Andrew Abbott: [The</a> University of Chicago Magazine: October 2003](<a href=“http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml]The”>The University of Chicago Magazine: October 2003)</p>

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<p>“…certainly not everyone will agree with your assumption.”</p>

<p>i believe it was shakespeare who is said to have said (unfortunately he never wrote it down) “that’s what makes horse races”</p>

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<p>I think the interesting issue in the article is the author’s assertion that grad schools aren’t forthcoming with students about how hard it is to get a tenure-track job – which is the goal of most humanities grad schools. He asserts, in fact, that professors mislead students on that score. </p>

<p>Also, somone earlier quoted their son as saying “people in my generation” will have to reinvent themselves many times. Doesn’t that in itself lend credence to the “don’t do it” argument? If people should be educated with the idea they’ll have to “reinvent” themselves frequently, is it then logical for students to immerse themselves for years in one specific and usually arcane area ? I’m not arguing - just asking.</p>

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<p>Hi,
I was the one who said that. But my son’s point of view is, that everyone will have to reinvent themselves in his generation, not just Humanities PhD students. Given economic conditions in the US now. This is not necessarily my own POV. But even in my supposedly “secure” field, I have had to reinvent myself a lot over and over;though probably I did not pay as much of a price monetarily and emotionally as say a PhD student. But in my 30 year career, I’ve often taken pay cuts of 50% or more in order to go from one set of circumstances to another and start anew. But again, my case is not as severe as say a Phd student who does not get tenure and then has to figure out what to do with his life.</p>

<p>Anyway, I’m not sure about all this…and as anxious about him as ever. :(</p>

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<p>I would never denigrate A-Rod. Go, Yankees!</p>

<p>Thanks to those who pointed out that there are literary prodigies, too. One wonders why they get so much less attention. Perhaps their talent is less obvious or easily perceived, or their work is more readily categorized as childish.</p>

<p>I’ll add Jane Austen, who wrote her first novel at 14, I believe (usually described as “juvenilia”). And, of course, Charlotte Bront</p>

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<p>Is it logical for students to go to law school, given the relatively tiny number of those legendary $170,000 per year starting salaries, and relatively large number of unemployed lawyers who are driving taxis these days? Or can only get jobs paying $30,000 (at most), slaving away at insurance defense firms?</p>

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<p>“Is it logical for students to go to law school, given the relatively tiny number of those legendary $170,000 per year starting salaries…”</p>

<p>a not small number of those attending law school were undergrad humanities majors. given the circumstances described in these posts, it seems a more “logical” next step for such scholars is to apprentice in the trades. philosopher eric hoffer was a longshoreman.</p>

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<p>The neat thing about a humanities Ph.D is that you are being paid to just do what you like for five or so years. Not a bad way to spend some time before the next reinvention, and usually no loans involved. I don’t see a down side, myself.</p>

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<p>Speaking of lawyers, [No</a> more room at the bench - latimes.com](<a href=“http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-greenbaum8-2010jan08,0,1467294.story]No”>No more room at the bench)</p>

<p>Generally there are different motivations for going to humanities grad school vs. law school. The grad students know they’re not going to make lot of money. The law students expect to earn a comfortable quote unquote living. Grad school is 5+ years with part-time work helping pay the bills, law school is 3 years of generally pricier tuition. Pick your poison :)</p>

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<p>To tell the truth, I am more worried about my daughter pursuing law school than I am about my son pursuing Classics grad school. He knows he will not attend a school that doesn’t pay him. He has no other ideas in mind, but I do think he’d be content enough to teach Latin at a high school. Not too many of those openings, either, but some. He’ll have no debt and pursue his life to the end. </p>

<p>My daughter does not want to go to our in state public: “I’ll absolutely die in Buffalo. I know it.” Well, we all know that’s not true, but.</p>

<p>She is applying to CUNY, but bless her heart I do think she’d choose a more prestigious NY law school if she’s offered even crumbs of money. I can’t bear to think of what her debt load will be. Law has been her dream since she was 4 or 5.</p>

<p>I don’t see how she’ll ever pay this debt off. Her dream is appellate law, and she is especially interested in death penalty cases. She is currently interning (unpaid internship) in the Georgia Capital Case office, working on the appeal of one particular person.</p>

<p>I am enormously proud of her, but she is in GA with a car we bought her and with rent we sent her with. She has found part-time work (okay, I’ll fess up – for her dad) that can be done over the internet to pay the next six months rent (we sent her with six months rent) and she is living with her boyfriend.</p>

<p>I am sure I won’t be able to deter her from getting herself massively indebted; I won’t send her that article because she would be angry. She is quite “confident”, though why I don’t know. She wasn’t able to find a job to support herself with her BA although she did work throughout college for all her spending money.</p>