HYP Admit: Local Scholarship Shutout Fair?

Parents Forum
61

<p>Re post # 60:
The OP applied to many scholarships and was "almost" shut out. The OP is wondering if the GC played a role in this shutout, given the comments made by the GC at one scholarship committee. That is a legitimate concern.</p>

<p>It is a bit presumptuous to assume that because a student was admitted to Harvard, the student can do without a scholarship then to suggest that the student applies for other scholarships. The logic baffles me.</p>

<p>I agree with Stickershock #59 precisely because I have sat on scholarship committees. On several, awards were based on a mixture of merit and need.
We debated information that was deemed pertinent to our decisions. And usually, we made these decisions by consensus. So I would know how much the information disclosed by the GC affected the committee's decision, even though each member might give it different weight.
As someone who has been on scholarship committees and expects to be again, I like criteria to be clear to all and to be respected.</p>

62

<p>This is the OP's statement:
[quote]
I will be attending one of the big three Ivy schools this fall after graduating from a school where virtually no one attends an Ivy.

[/quote]
This is pretty clear to me. Obviously this is not a school with dozens and dozens of high stat kids that would be almost impossible to chose among when selecting academic scholarships. He's a standout.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The committee can make its decision by whatever method they choose.

[/quote]
No they can't! On the scholarships I've been involved in creating, the selection ciriteria MUST be followed. Subjectivity comes into play if a particular requirement is vague, such as "good character." But if no mention of financial need is made, then it can't be condsidered. NSM, your post is full of sheer speculation. You even state that you don't think his h.s gives many scholarships. How could you possibly know this? My small town h.s. awards well over a hundred. For every imaginable EC, social service organization, and subject. Marite is absolutely correct that committee members may give different weight to various bits of information. But they can't just randomly introduce criteria that aren't included in the scholarship's list of qualification. Can you imagine if a physics award was given to a kid who had earned a C in physics, with the rationale that he was such a great quarterback, this had really cut into his study time, and the C is a decent grade under the circumstances? Unless the scholarship donor specified he wanted a football player to win his physics award, this would be unfair.</p>

63

<p>I think some scholarship applications don't reflect the true selection criteria of the donor. </p>

<p>I'm on a scholarship committee at our local university. We give 4-5 full ride merit based, (need a factor) each year. We order the list of candidates by merit first, based on transcripts and essays, and professors' verbal advocacy, in a selection meeting. Once the list is made, we discuss "need". Applicants respond to a second essay question asking how the scholarship would make a difference in their lives. Generally, students who say it would allow them to quit their swing shift job and study more are looked upon more favorably than those who say they will be able to travel abroad, or pay back their parents. (If one has parents who CAN pay, this puts the applicant in a different category than one who doesn't.) The final list of recipients is sometimes shuffled after the need piece is addressed. </p>

<p>More applications should clearly state the weight of need in the selection process. "Need" can be judged without seeing the FAFSA or tax return.</p>

64

<p>
[quote]
More applications should clearly state the weight of need in the selection process.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with this 100%. If "need" counts, then I think it is rude and inconsiderate to the applicants not to disclose this up front. These applications take time and effort by both the applicant and the kind people who write required recommendations, not to mention the emotional investment by the applicant and his/her family. There is no excuse not to tell prospective applicants BEFORE they apply, what the selection criteria is.</p>

65

<p>Stickershock, I have been on scholarship, award committees, and there is almost almost always a subjective, holistice element to the process. Even if need is not supposed to be a factor, there is a strong incentive to give where the need is more. Unfortunately, comments like the one the GC made can be given more weight than they should. It is difficult to decide who gets what, and unless the awards are done with a computer, human emotion and judgment, flawed as they may be come into the picture.</p>

<p>The GC should not have made those remarks as he did not have the knowledge to have done so. However, it happens. Sometimes, there is someone who knows of one kid's special circumstances, and not those of others. It is not a fair process.</p>

66

<p>
[quote]
The GC should not have made those remarks as he did not have the knowledge to have done so. However, it happens. Sometimes, there is someone who knows of one kid's special circumstances, and not those of others. It is not a fair process.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I totally agree. could it be made better and fairer? That's my question.</p>

67

<p>I don't know Marite. There is small talk during these decisions, and sometimes someone does have outside knowledge about one of the candidates. It may be true or not true. Certainly incomplete. The decisions are supposed to be made on the basis of the information in the application, but with all human processes, there is that emotional element. It's pretty hard to not take into account that a family is having severe monetary problems and know that the financial aid package was not so great for a candidate. Then if you have another kid who seems to have it all...well, it does enter the picture whether it should or not. To be fair, the decision should be made strictly by those with no other infor than what is in the apps, but still if recs are included in the process, it is not fair when some recommenders are able to hone into some areas that make the awards more probable.</p>

68

<p>Riverrunner, beautifully explained.</p>

<p>Could the process have been "fairer?" Who knows. </p>

<p>As I think about it, my advice to OP is based not on the fairness of this particular award, but on the capriciousness of everything having to do with college - including being chosen for HYP. A committee looked at his/her credentials and decided to offer admission. There are probably lots of kids who could make the case that they deserve admission more than he. </p>

<p>So, I don't think the particulars matter. In the same situation I be would thankful for my daughter's good fortune and be happy for those who also earned recognition. Maybe I should change my screen name to Pollyanna, but I can honestly say that is how I would react.</p>

69

<p>cpt: I have been on enough selection committees to know that there is a very strong element of arbitrariness, but usually, it's not blatant or intentional--at least on those on which I have served. I have disagreed plenty of time with the decisions that were made, but only when rules and criteria were violated did I threaten to resign, thankfully only once or twice.
I don't think the GC meant to do ill by the student. But it might be helpful to have a polite discussion about the consequences of the comments (if indeed they played a part) and point out that it is not possible for GCs to know every applicants' situation. And it might be helpful if the scholarship committee publicized better the various criteria that go into the decision-making process. It has the right to impose whatever criteria it wishes, provided these are legal, but once they have been set and publicized, they should be followed. It won't solve the problem of too many applicants for too few awards, but the unlucky ones will not feel aggrieved, even if they are disappointed.</p>

70

<p>I am fascinated by the assumption that GCs know who has need and how much. I wonder what our GC thinks about my S and his classmates? Certainly, she has never asked us, and we have never told her, because for one thing when we tried we were unable to get an appointment with her before the application deadlines.</p>

<p>It seems to me that two things are clear here: 1) A middle-income kid who has gotten into H has already won the financial aid lottery. Due to their unambiguous published policies, everyone knows that his parents will not be gapped to the tune of 100K or whatever over four years, as many other families will be at many other well-known schools that claim to "meet need." 2) it is inappropriate for the "friend" to discuss the selection process outside of the committee.</p>

<p>IMHO, the guidance counselor--if asked by the committee--should have refrained from offering estimations of need because it is highly unlikely that s/he actually knows. I can certainly understand the temptation to steer money towards a student whom one KNOWS to be significantly gapped vs a student whom one KNOWS will benefit from the nation's most generous FA policy. Nevertheless, s/he shouldn't have done it, because s/he just doesn't know. If, in fact, s/he did it.</p>

71

<p>It happens more than you think. Local politics and who knows who have more to do with local awards than merit. We were shut out as well locally. D was NMS, Coca Cola, and admitted to HYP+. No one else at her mountain states HS was even close, and yet not one local scholarship out of many handed out. Oh, and she was far lower on the income scale than the majority of her class. This county has the highest per capita income in the entire US.</p>

72

<p>
[quote]
If "need" counts, then I think it is rude and inconsiderate to the applicants not to disclose this up front. These applications take time and effort by both the applicant and the kind people who write required recommendations, not to mention the emotional investment by the applicant and his/her family. There is no excuse not to tell prospective applicants BEFORE they apply, what the selection criteria is.

[/quote]
Exactly!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Even if need is not supposed to be a factor, there is a strong incentive to give where the need is more.

[/quote]
There is no possible way to know who has the greatest need unless financial data is collectd from all applicants. If we all guessed about the net worth of our neighbors, I guarantee we'd be wrong more often than right. </p>

<p>
[quote]
There are probably lots of kids who could make the case that they deserve admission more than he.

[/quote]
But we're talking about a scholarship, not HYP admissions. And the scholarship in question was awarded on one GC's belief about need, despite having no data to support that belief. Just her feelings or guesses, and her inappropriate oveerreaching. Need should not have been introduced in this situation. It's akin to HYP putting out information stating they look for high achieving kids, but then deciding to award admission to tall kids -- but guessing about the kids' heights based on their zip codes.</p>

73

<p>"I will be attending one of the big three Ivy schools this fall after graduating from a school where virtually no one attends an Ivy."</p>

<p>"This is pretty clear to me. Obviously this is not a school with dozens and dozens of high stat kids that would be almost impossible to chose among when selecting academic scholarships. He's a standout."</p>

<p>There's no evidence that the scholarship was being given for academic reasons. It was sponsored by a service club, which often value community service highest among selection factors for scholarships.</p>

<p>It's presumptuous to assume that only Ivy-bound students would be standouts at a high school. I'm saying this as a Harvard graduate. </p>

<p>I also know plenty of students who are going by choice to second tier public universities even though they are vals or sals with high stats and very strong leadership, community service and academic achievements.</p>

<p>"And the scholarship in question was awarded on one GC's belief about need, despite having no data to support that belief. "</p>

<p>We don't know that since the info came from hearsay.</p>

<p>"MHO, the guidance counselor--if asked by the committee--should have refrained from offering estimations of need because it is highly unlikely that s/he actually knows."</p>

<p>We don't know that the GC did the above. </p>

<p>OP, how exactly did the scholarship that you were turned down for describe "merit"? </p>

<p>And how many scholarships have been awarded this year in your high school that you think that you deserved consideration for?</p>

<p>Were you awarded any private scholarships from your high school?</p>

<p>Do you think that you were more deserving than the recipients of the scholarship that you posted about? If so, why?</p>

74

<p>I think local politics/connectedness counts for a lot. Around here it really pays to be Lutheran. I don't think anyone checks the financial authenticity when some one says they "need" aid. </p>

<p>I am ok with the one scholarship my daughter got. It just was a huge reality check for how the town works.</p>

75

<p>Free or reduced lunch is usually a pretty good indication of need.</p>

76

<p>When money is given by a service club or charitable organization, need is ALWAYS a factor. Do you think that anyone really wants to donate money to fund a scholarship to see the money spent on a fancy computer for a kid who has it all, as opposed to making it possible for some other kid to go to a 4-year college where that kid would not otherwise be able to afford to go? Service clubs are also looking at the record of service... but it is quite naive for someone to go asking for money without including a statement of need in their application. Sorry... but these service clubs are not in the business of tossing prize money around to make rich people richer... they are trying to "do good" with their money. </p>

<p>It seems to me that if a person is being passed over for scholarships one after another, the most likely explanation is that the applicant has failed to appreciate what the agencies giving the awards are looking for. Yeah, its convenient to blame the g.c. or whine about how much more deserving the Ivy-bound student is .... but there is a lot of "me, me, me" that comes through with this continued expression of entitlement (Kid A is the one who got accepted to Harvard, therefore Kid A ought to be the one to win all the scholarships, too) and service clubs aren't looking for that. So putting need aside, the kid who is planning their education around a future career helping others is going to have a leg up on the kid who is hoping their Ivy credential will lead to a position at a wall street brokerage. </p>

<p>I don't know about the OP's situation -- I am talking generically here -- but if his essay didn't mention need in conjunction with an educational goal that is geared to a helping profession with ultimate plans to work in a charitable/nonprofit context, then the application is likely to be turned down in favor of someone who does fit that mold. </p>

<p>We don't know what the GC really said, we just know the 3rd hand hearsay. But unless the OP follows up with a post that explains how his scholarship application made it clear that he <em>needed</em> the support of the service organization <em>and</em> that his educational and career goals further the mission of that organization..... I'm pretty much convinced that the scholarships probably went to the other deserving kids who did a better job on their applications. </p>

<p>Yes, there is local politics that comes into play, and sometimes it is really a matter of who the parents are and what they have done over the years more than what is in the application..... but I am rather irked that some posters think that there is ever a time when it is inappropriate to consider need as component of awarding scholarship funds. The whole point of these scholarships is to help fill an unmet need.</p>

77

<p>


Good for you! You have shown exactly the attitude that I would expect that others should be able to comprehend -- you appreciate that "fairness" means considering the needs of others before grabbing more for yourself.</p>

78

<p>
[quote]
but I am rather irked that some posters think that there is ever a time when it is inappropriate to consider need as component of awarding scholarship funds. The whole point of these scholarships is to help fill an unmet need.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Then you would probably find me "irksome," in the sense that I was under the misimpression that there were such things as pure merit scholarships. I had no idea that the purpose of every scholarship is to give money to those who need money rather than to reward and recognize individual students for their achievements.</p>

<p>I also admit to being somewhat irked by posters who assume that students whose parents make $93K have no need for funds for college. It seems to be a common misconception that every parent whose FAFSA EFC is relatively large, actually has sufficient funds or is even willing to pay for all of their student's college needs. Scholarships awarded purely on a student's merit, without regard to the circumstances of their birth, may be the one chance some of these students have to avoid taking on burdensome college loans.</p>

79

<p>"When money is given by a service club or charitable organization, need is ALWAYS a factor. Do you think that anyone really wants to donate money to fund a scholarship to see the money spent on a fancy computer for a kid who has it all, as opposed to making it possible for some other kid to go to a 4-year college where that kid would not otherwise be able to afford to go? Service clubs are also looking at the record of service... but it is quite naive for someone to go asking for money without including a statement of need in their application. "</p>

<p>True. And what's really ironic is that the OP stated his father belongs to the service club that gives the scholarship. Seems that the father shouldn't be surprised that his own service club considers need when giving out scholarship funds. If the club truly is involved in service (and such clubs tend to attract the relatively more affluent members of communities), the club may also not wish to give scholarships to members' kids because usually service clubs help people more needy than their own membership.</p>

<p>"I also admit to being somewhat irked by posters who assume that students whose parents make $93K have no need for funds for college."</p>

<p>I don't think that anyone here has assumed this. Meanwhile, however, the OP is planning to attend one of the country's most generous colleges when it comes to need-based scholarships, and also one that requires students to take out a far smaller amount of loans than does virtually any other college in the country. </p>

<p>The OP says that few people from his school go to Ivies -- in general the most generous colleges -- so it's likely that any student in competition for the scholarships may have had a less generous financial aid package than did the OP, which would be important unless the competing student was so affluent as to not need scholarship money. However, in that case, why would a student take the time to apply?</p>

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<p>Bay, <em>colleges</em> give away so-called merit scholarships, which really are just fee-discounts used to attract strong students to their colleges. There are some privately funded academic scholarships, such as National Merit, that are based on grades, test scores, and the like. Plus there are all sorts of contests around that give away money for the best essay or the best costume or whatever. </p>

<p>But service organizations and charitable associations have a mission to fill, and their scholarship money goes to further that mission. And that mission is always some iteration of "serving the needy" or "helping others." So "merit" is always going to be defined through that lense. And the OP made it clear that this was a service organization scholarship. </p>

<p>And there is no misperception as to financial need for the OP -- he stated his circumstances at the outset. He does not have to take on burdensome loans -- Harvard doesn't require it. His parents are expected to pay $10K and for whatever reason they plan to borrow, but that $10K is far less than most people in that income bracket are paying for their kids to attend 2nd tier pubic colleges. The point isn't that they have no need, the point is that it is very obvious that other families probably have MORE need. </p>

<p>That's the point that seems to be utterly lost, and I don't understand how people cannot be so oblivious to it. This is not about ONE KID. The scholarship committee had a bunch of applicants, and they are going to pick the ones who they most want to give money to. <em>Fair</em> means that the kid who is most deserving of the money gets it; "most deserving" to a service organization is either going to mean the kid that needs it the most, or the kid that is most likely to use their education to give back to the community, or both.</p>