HYPMS and the learning disability student

Parents Forum
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<p>Wow, it sure is hard to hit a moving target. Every time someone tries to call you out on something, rather than refute it, you move to the next thing. </p>

<p>I am going to be persistent about this until I get an answer. I cannot have a sincere and honest debate with someone if they are just going to be ignore all evidence that does not suit them rather than refute it, so I just want to make sure the rules of this debate are clear:
If someone introduces a source to support their argument then they cannot just cherry-pick data and ignore the disconfirming evidence. I did you the honor of looking at evidence you presented and acknowledging that it, is it reasonable that you do the same?</p>

<p>I’m just looking for a yes or no.</p>

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<p>Lol… not going to get that here. A relatively new poster who hits hot button items in a couple of threads they start right away isn’t looking for real discussion. Out here to intentionally stir the pot is my guess.</p>

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<p>@intparent – Lol – that may be. However, CesarC did have a sense of humor about my Cinemax joke in his Male-Female acceptance rate thread and the OP did cite some evidence whenasked, so I’m I’m going to give this person the benefit of the doubt and say that he/she is an honest person with whom I have profound disagreements. CesarC – can I get a “yes” or a “no” re: rules of this debate. If not, then intparent, I guess you are right. </p>

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<p>CesarC, why don’t you just take your own kid(s) for a neuropsych. evaluation and “shop for a diagnosis” yourself. Itis not that easy to get a diagnosis, honestly. Your beef seems to be more about the fact that some parents have the means to get testing and others don’t. Instead of arguing about whether or not certain kids should get accommodations, maybe the way to level the playing field is to have schools offer some sort of screening for all. Most public schools do pursue this with individual students, but it is true that parents sometimes have to push, and some parents are working three jobs and don’t have the funds.</p>

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<p>Cesar, in almost all these cases, these kids have had accommodations for some time. So, you can’t say “well, they don’t need accommodations because they are already doing really well” - they got accommodations because at some point in their lives, they WEREN’T doing very well, got diagnosed with an LD, and started getting appropriate modifications.</p>

<p>As for the question of whether a kid with accommodations will be able to hack it in the professional world - that’s only an issue if you assume a standardized test is representative of the work one needs to do in most careers. But there are plenty of professions in which a given LD either wouldn’t be relevant or could be compensated for with extra effort on the part of the person with the LD. I am a little leery of mandated extensions on written work in college, since I can’t think of all that many professional occupations where you wouldn’t have to get writing done on deadlines. But the capacity to quickly answer multiple choice questions about a passage from a novel doesn’t have much necessary relationship with overall potential. </p>

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<p>I don’t think the OP is out to stir the pot, I think he genuinely believes what he posts. I’m sure there are parents and students gaming the system, but having a high IQ dyslexic kid I’m willing to ‘give up’ on the cheaters for the benefit of an education befitting the intelligence of my son. I’m not convinced people gaming the system reap much of anything in the long run. </p>

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<p>@apprenticeprof - not all accommodations are related to timing. Many kids have accommodations that require they be provided with written notes from the class. Others are allowed to take exams orally rather than in writing. If they’ve mastered the material, I’m OK with that - except when they then graduate and expect to be given the same accommodations in the workplace. If a kid needs help to pass a class, OK, but if a kid needs that much help to pass all the classes in their major, I wonder if they are in the right major. I know in my workplace, I spend a lot of time in meetings, taken notes, performing analysis, and writing documents. Those are my strengths. If these are skills someone needs accommodation for to complete a major or graduate work, then perhaps they are striving for a goal that doesn’t fit their skill set. Some kids would be better off finding what their strengths are rather than trying to force the proverbial square peg into a round hole.</p>

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<p>If the goal is to provide the education “befitting” each individual student’s intelligence, then all students ought to be given the same extra time. All of the students who did not get properly diagnosed or tested are not being served, so shouldn’t there be some societal concern that we are wasting the talents of those who might have become the next Nobel laureate? I’m fine with LD students getting extra time; I’m not fine with it not being provided to anyone who feels they need it, whether tested or not.</p>

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<p>@Bay - Your comment:
“If the goal is to provide the education “befitting” each individual student’s intelligence, then all students ought to be given the same extra time.”</p>

<p>Do you accept the premise that people with LD take longer to finish tasks than people of equal intelligence?</p>

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<p>No, not necessarily. Should I? Is that a universal feature of LDs?</p>

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<p>I am not saying it is a universal feature, but that is why there are different accommodations for different LD’s.</p>

<p>So I don’t have to have anyone cherry-pick some LD that doesn’t have time issue, I will just throw out ADD (it is not, for the sake of semantics, an LD, but I am guessing you have the same opinion about it)</p>

<p>Are students with ADD, on average, able to complete tasks in the same amount of time as people with the same intelligence?</p>

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<p>I have no idea. I’m not trying to argue about what <em>diagnosed</em> LD students can or cannot do. What point are you heading to?</p>

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<p>I think the problem many of us have with these LD diagnoses is there seems to be no objective definition of what constitutes disability. I feel I don’t really understand it myself, so correct me if I’m wrong. If a kid’s math skill test in the 90th percentile but their computation skill is in the 10th percentile, that would be considered a disability. But, that doesn’t imply that the 10% of the population is disabled, because of course by definition 10% of the population performs at or below that mark and always will. You are only considered disabled if you are fortunate enough to be also gifted somehow. With a physical disability, we can see that, of course normal people can write, or see, and anyone who cannot do so is clearly disabled. There is not a pool of people who cannot write or see well enough to succeed on the test from which we are cherry-picking those who are likely to score the best for special assistance and saying the rest aren’t disabled, that’s just how they are. We assist them all. </p>

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<p>I am heading to helping you understand why accommodations level the playing field. Based on your comment – “If the goal is to provide the education “befitting” each individual student’s intelligence, then all students ought to be given the same extra time,” I was not sure you knew the reasoning behind accommodations.</p>

<p>If you have “no idea” and are “not trying to say what ‘diagnosed’ LD students can or cannot do” how are you able to argue whether or not it is fair for them to be given extra time?</p>

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<p>I did not say it wasn’t fair to give them extra time; in fact, I wrote that I am fine with it. I said I think everyone who wants extra time ought to be given the same accommodation.</p>

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<p>In some respects, we are on the same page. I also believe that the SAT should be a longer test (more time given to all students). I actually think that is one thing everyone in here seems to agree on. If we had a had in creating the redesigned SAT, I think we may find a lot more common ground.</p>

<p>However, what that really means is that the SAT is just a longer test, which, again, is not a bad idea.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, the College Board didn’t see it our way when they unveiled the basic structure of the new SAT (the test will be administered from March 2016) onwards, and they do not see it our way on the current SAT. Therefore, at issue is whether or not students who have a diagnosed and document LD should get extra time. </p>

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<p>For dyslexia, or dysgraphia, there is a very very clear definition and very clear tests that show the difference.</p>

<p>I have a gifted dyslexic who had to work twice to three times as long to get her homework done as the “normal” students around her. She struggled with no subject matter she was ever given, but with the damn writing… oddly, it made her a much better writer in the “real world” where being concise and to the point is valued much more highly than being wordy and irrelevent. Funny how that works. Get a C for a short to the point paper, get a promotion at work for being direct and to the point. </p>

<p>Either way, I’d be fine with everyone getting as much time as they wanted or needed to finish their standardized tests. Who cares? I’ve seen the actual raw data on the way extra time effects the dyslexic kids vs. “normal” learners. Giving all the time in the world on the tests would make it so the gifted dyslexics outperformed even more people. Only the LD kid benefit from extra time.</p>

<p>Sad but true.</p>

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<p>Just to share form my own experience - my brother is high functioning autistic, and he NEEDS extra time on his exams because he struggles so much with reading comprehension. If he didn’t have extra time, he would never finish his tests. It’s not that he doesn’t know the information, it’s that it takes him longer to understand the question.</p>

<p>I think OP is bitter for some reason, to be honest. The kids who are receiving accommodations for LD’s have been tested. It’s not like anyone can go to the Collegeboard and just get one. If anything, turn your scrutiny towards their accommodation approval process (which I personally have no knowledge of, but have never heard anyone complain about until this thread lol). </p>

<p>Furthermore, the point of school is to learn: not to compete, or score well on tests. If a person can learn with the help of accommodations and then use those skills later in the workplace, there shouldn’t be an issue with it. If they need extra help in the work place, that’s the concern of their employer and is certainly a factor in their employment. In other words, if someone has an LD severe enough to warrant help in the workplace, then the employer is likely already aware of it and will decide to hire/not hire the individual with that in mind.</p>

<p>I took the SAT and scored in the top 1% without needing extra time - but I’m neurotypical and don’t have an LD.
Would I expect someone with dyslexia to read a passage in the same amount of time as me? No. Expecting that is ignorant and insensitive.</p>

<p>As for the argument that everyone who wants extra time should get it, I see your point, and it makes sense. But if there are two neurotypical kids with no LDs, and one scores a 2200 in 3 hours and the other scores a 2210 in 10 hours, is that fair? </p>

<p>I think the expectation (and I’m not saying this is a correct point of view) is that a normal kid can perform their best on an exam when they have to, whereas a kid with an LD might not be able to show their depth of skill because their disability holds them back.</p>

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<p>It defies logic to claim that a non-LD-diagnosed test-taker would not perform better with extra time on a timed test, if he cannot finish the test as presented in the allotted time.</p>

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<p>Refraining from using that recently-banned word here, I will simply say that CesarC seems to have little interest in intelligent discussion of the issues so, I will respond to his reprehensible spew about what a “gift” my children’s struggles have been for them, and then I’m out of this thread.</p>

<p>First, I would not wish the tormented, abusive educational experience my children faced at the hands of adults who were supposed to be educators on anyone’s child. For anyone to suggest that a gifted LD child is at any sort of advantage in any classroom that that I have ever know of is ludicrous. The hatred and complete lack of understanding that children with LDs often face in classrooms in this country is appalling. “Twice Exceptional Children” (ridiculous moniker, if you ask me) are often at higher risk than those in standard or Special Ed classrooms because (as we were told by more than a few teachers along the way), gifted teachers frequently seek GT certifications so that they can teach the “easy kids” and don’t have to deal with kids who need extra time, need to use a computer instead of writing by hand (21st Century, anyone?), etc. Many (a slight majority, in our experience) want to teach only the kids who can paper-push at mach-speed, and make them look good as teachers with minimum effort. We were told by numerous teachers along the way that gifted LD students do not belong in their gifted classrooms. </p>

<p>So, what do you do with high-achieving (outside of handwritten work), super-high IQ kids who simply can’t write by hand? Do you completely discount that they know enough to teach the class themselves, but aren’t really excited about the prospect of going to college at age 10? </p>

<p>I’d love to know what sots of torture OP was bearing on the many mornings my kid was called up in front of his third grade class so the teacher could explain all of the reasons why my son (who was always the slowest on daily, handwritten timed math quizzes) was “stupid” and made “stupid mistakes” on timed math (her words, as repeatedly confirmed by parent volunteers in the classroom). </p>

<p>I wonder what horrid forms of torture OPs children were experiencing when my 6th grader was told by his teacher to just pee in his pants at his desk because he wasn’t leaving the classroom to go the bathroom until he completed a handwritten art project (making a picture using exactly 100 words) that he had already worked on for hours (and that, once again, he should have never been forced to do in the first place)? </p>

<p>What sort of games were OPs poor, mistreated kids playing on the playground when my sons were denied recess privileges for weeks on end because they couldn’t finish their handwritten work that they shouldn’t have even been required to do by hand, per their accommodations? </p>

<p>Oh yeah, that’s right. My kids were just living the good life with their high IQs and their teachers who despised them, not because they were discipline problems (because they weren’t), but because allowing them to use a computer in a 21st Century classroom or letting them complete unfinished work at home gave them an unfair advantage over other kids in the class. Don’t even get me started on high school. To tell the tales … there are no words to do that horrendous experience justice.</p>

<p>OP is living in an alternate universe. His lack of knowledge and understanding of the lives of gifted LD kids is so appalling that I just can’t even discuss it any further. As whiney as he is about every perceived injustice he experiences in his very small world, he certainly has little empathy or even ability to consider that other people might face injustices, too. As we say in the south, “Bless his little heart.”</p>