<p>names are not from real life, or in any reference to real people. I just want to know what the colleges (top colleges, that is) are looking for.
both girls are of same socioeconomic background; and are... say, Asian American.
situation one:
this girl gets extremely good grades-- the kind of person who simply does not get grades below 95, period. She has several academic awards. She is valedictorian of her class of ~600, has a near perfect SAT score, and ~730 - to - 760 range SATII scores. She is very involved in only one extracurricular club; she also does other clubs does not do sports, play an instrument (to a competitive level), or exhibit noteably strong skills in the arts. she has engaged in research. She doesn't really actively participate in the class -- she's on the quiet side. Teachers would likely describe this student as "dilligent and very/extremely bright."</p>
<p>situation two:
this girl gets fairly impressive grades-- she is in the top 15 or so in her (same) class (of ~600), though she is not as academic as the girl in situation one. She also has several academic awards, though not as many. She has a near-perfect SAT score and ~750 - 800 range SATII scores. She is very involved in three extracurriculars, plays two instruments to the all-state level, is on a varsity-level sports team, and has achieved regional, state, and national recognition in her art and writing. she also has engaged in research. Her noteable weakness is mathematics, although her mathematical ability is still above average (enough to get a good overall SAT score). Overall, she actively participates in class. Teachers would likely describe this student as "insightful, motivated, and prolific."</p>
<p>so, which one would the colleges prefer? I mean, I know they take into account personal skills; however, academic standing is weighted more...
Which has a greater chance of being accepted?</p>
<p>Ok, the only thing the first girl is better at is the class rank and that is only slightly higher. #1 versus #15. Big deal. </p>
<p>2nd girl has higher SATs, really good ecs versus kind of dull ecs, very active versus quiet.</p>
<h1>2 obviously. #1 is the "typical asian applicant". Well not really, cause usually asians do better on the SAT iis since it is pretty easy to get perfect on SAT II, kind of hard to get perfect on SAT I.</h1>
<p>Not such a stupid question, actually. The fact is, it depends on where the two are applying. According to Paul Attewell's research (The Winner-Take-All High School, 2001), class rank has an outsized impact on admissions probability at elite schools and, notably, the Ivy League schools. Even dropping from #1 to #5 can take a candidate from likely admit to unlikely admit.</p>
<p>It depends greatly on how they are going to craft a class. Both students demonstrate that if admitted they can do the work so academics so to talk from an academic standpoint you are literally splitting hairs as both students will make it to committee and it will be a question of which person do you think would bring "more to the campus" and the class that you are trying to craft?</p>
<p>keep in mind that there are other factors that will come into play. both will be assessed based on the opportunities offered to them (remember those for whom much has been given, much is required). Is either a first generation college student? What do the parents do for a living? Does 1 or both come from an impovershed background? Had one or the other have to over come hardships? are there responsibilities out side of school that the student is responsible for and the list can go on.</p>
<p>The profile for student one will come at almost a dime a dozen especially in elite college admissions while a student with the profile of student # 2 may be less likely. </p>
<p>Remember colleges look to admit flesh and blood people who can function both in and outside of the classroom. The fact that # 2 is a varsity athlete will bring a different skillsets to the table such as motivation, team work and working collaborativelywith others; all which are important to bring to a community of learners. they will definitely be separated by their essay, and recommendation letters.</p>
<p>I really hate doing chances, but if I had to assess based soley on the information given, my vote would go to student # 2</p>
<p>Overall, nothing trumps the institutional mission</p>
<p>alright, so let's say that both students are like the typical Asian - they are both children of immigrants. Both parents of both students have gotten an education, although not at a prestegious college-- and they're not PhDs or anything like that.</p>
<p><strong>they go to the same school and have the same teachers.</strong></p>
<p>i agree that #2 is far far more likely than #1. if her rank dropped more or something, the 2 might be comparable. the 2nd has far more impressive ECs, #1 is mainly just numbers, which is as good for her as Ecs for #2, but also more common.</p>
<p>i dont know... acually, it might be a random toss-up between the two. I think it will depend mainly on essays, and what time of day the adcoms read the application</p>
<p>When you are talking about the most selective schools, neither student would be shoo ins. If you take 6 areas of concern, difficulty of academics, grades/class rank, test scores, recs, ECs, essays and rate them each on a 1-5 basis in the way HPY would, unless the athlete is going to be contributing to the college team, he would not get better than an average score on the ECs, nor are the top schools so concerned about all state music.Other than the grades and test scores, neither girl has anything that will get a top score in any category. If you read "What it Takes to Get into the Ivy League", and check those accomplishments against the list that assesses activities, you realize how tremendous achievement has to be to be recognized and given a high rating. </p>
<p>Now if you move the scenario to a top highschool where grades are very deflated, either girl may get in, since the class rank is usually tweaked at those schools, if even given. I have seen cases (and they have actually been Asian girls) accepted to top schools with similar profiles from my sons' high school. The wording of the teachers and school rec, and that danged essay becomes important then, as both girls will be eyed on academic prowress. If that research project is Intel or something else unusual, that could make it an in. Leadership qualities shown in a rigorous, competitive highschool carry a bit of cache. And there are national recognitions, and national recognitions---some carry a lot of weight, some do not. I think you can take away the Asian adjective, and even the female part of the picture, as irrelevant.</p>
<p>When you are talking about the most selective schools, neither student would be shoo ins. If you take 6 areas of concern, difficulty of academics, grades/class rank, test scores, recs, ECs, essays and rate them each on a 1-5 basis in the way HPY would, unless the athlete is going to be contributing to the college team, he would not get better than an average score on the ECs, nor are the top schools so concerned about all state music.Other than the grades and test scores, neither girl has anything that will get a top score in any category. If you read "What it Takes to Get into the Ivy League", and check those accomplishments against the list that assesses activities, you realize how tremendous achievement has to be to be recognized and given a high rating. </p>
<p>Now if you move the scenario to a top highschool where grades are very deflated, either girl may get in, since the class rank is usually tweaked at those schools, if even given. I have seen cases (and they have actually been Asian girls) accepted to top schools with similar profiles from my sons' high school. The wording of the teachers and school rec, and that danged essay becomes important then, as both girls will be eyed on academic prowress. If that research project is Intel or something else unusual, that could make it an in. Leadership qualities shown in a rigorous, competitive highschool carry a bit of cache. And there are national recognitions, and national recognitions---some carry a lot of weight, some do not. I think you can take away the Asian adjective, and even the female part of the picture, as irrelevant.</p>
<p>I agree with the person who said neither is a shoo-in. However, if the U didn't have a great competitor (& a hooked competitor) with a better profile AND from the same region/school, then #2 is a far better bet for admission than #1.</p>
<p>Two specific students are almost never in competition with each other. For example, suppose one is applying for an engineering program and the other in liberal arts. Clearly their credentials will be evaluated differently, and probably by different sets of admissions officers and admissions committees. Suppose one comes from a high school who has never had a graduate at that particular college while the other comes from a high school whose graduates are known to be high peformers, and who generally go to that particular college if accepted. On the other hand geographic diversity especially at private colleges is something that can help in admissions. </p>
<p>As for the Asian-American thing; depending on the location of college it will either have no imapct or it will be an extra consideration which could help the applicant.</p>
<p>Most state schools are number driven so that will be the major consideration in admission.</p>
<p>This is the most original thread ever. It beats the LET'S RANK THE IVIES thread.</p>
<p>Maybe girl number one does not have the skills that she needs to be a sport player or a professional musician. Maybe she is just shy. She is making up for what she lacks in her work and dedication. </p>
<p>Number two just has natural talent in everything, but we all know where this is going. Most people would say that colleges will pick number two because of her well roundedness. </p>
<p>However, lets judge people on their dedication/determination and not their innate abilities.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse - another example of people judging asians to a higher standard</p>
<p>Can you read? All state music, varsity level sports, NATIONALLY recognized writing and art. 2390 or so with top 1% rank and you say this person is not a shoo-in. No, she is a shoo-in for any school that is not HYPMS. She would be a relatively easy admit as well. </p>
<p>The other is virtually the same except with no ECs. Of course the second is better since the first is roughly the same academically but inferior EC-wise compared to the second. </p>
<p>Just getting USAMO or USABO is like a huge boost already and there are tons of people with this. MIT eats these kids up like a pig as long they have reasonable scores and gpa.</p>
<p>Probably all depends on how they are "packaged for the sale" (essays, interviews, connections, etc.... Could go either way depending on those things.</p>
<p>Okay -- just to clarify -- **
THESE TWO GIRLS ARE AT THE SAME PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL, for the purposes of this question. <strong>This high school sends ~35 to 40 people to ivies each year; it is relatively competitive.**</strong>
also, PLEASE note the teacher descriptions, because recs count too, as we all know.</p>
<p>Furthermore, let's just say that both girls want to major in the sciences, for the Asian stereotype thing; which would probably make them in competition. Well, greater than usual, at least.</p>
<p>NOTE that student #2's SAT II scores are in a higher range than student #1, which is probably the only advantage she has academic-wise.</p>
<p>Gryffon: "but we all know where this is going" -- what do you mean by that?
And to fastMED: yes, the second girl has gotten a semifinalist ranking for USABO, which actually isn't that big of a deal. The first girl does not specialize in any particular academic subject; she is just all-around strong academic-wise, but she doesn't have any particular academic interest, which is why she was unable to get a semifinalist ranking for USABO.</p>
<p>Thank you, I think this is a interesting thread. Any other opinions?</p>
<p>Oh yeah, and I thought it'd be interesting to include these excerpts from "Acing the College Application" :</p>
<p>to support student number 2:
"Colleges want high impact recruits. The college gets much more mileage out of a student who is either a sport's star, a great musician, a campus activist, or a published writer than it does out of someone who goes back to the dorm after class and channel surfs. You represent an investment for the college. [...] therefore, they look for students who are active, show leadership, have demonstrable skills in a specific area like sports or music -- in short, those who will make a difference [...] Colleges look for students who show initiative and passion. "</p>
<p>on the other hand, to support student number 1:
"No matter what admissions officers tell you about the importance of leadership, keep in mind that academics are weighted more in the admissions process than extracurricular leadership. No matter how strong you are in leadership, you will still need at least a solid academic record for selective and highly selective schools. [...] For the most selective schools, academics rule the day with extras a distant second. To put it another way, strong academics open the door while substantial talents may get you inside."</p>
<p>So, the question is either--
Is one extracurricular enough for Student number 1 to get in,</p>
<p>OR</p>
<p>Is student number 2's academic standing going to keep her from gaining acceptance? *In that school, the ranking from 1 to 15 equates to an approximate 0.2 on the overall GPA.</p>
<p>Well, if the second girl doesn't even get past the academic "threshold", so to speak, the first girl would have a better chance, although I don't think that the first girl would get in, either, due to her lack of EC's.</p>
<p>what the hell? .2 difference in GPA is kind of big. </p>
<p>So basically:</p>
<h1>1</h1>
<p>4.7
2390
750,750, 750
internship, some toher stuff</p>
<h1>2</h1>
<p>4.5
2390
780 780 780
USABO some other junk</p>
<p>hmm, i would still say the second ahs much better chances even though USABO is easy to get into. Didn't know it was that easy cause we dun have it at my school.</p>