Hyps, Schmips: It really doesn't matter!

Parents Forum
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<p>I have been reading this forum and the other forums for some time. I find it amusing that everyone is so anxious about getting into some top school. I have had kids ask " if their life is over if they don’t get into and ivy or MIT top LAC etc." Parents are frantic about college admissions, and I certainly don’t see a lot of reason in parental advice. Let me put the record straight as I see it.</p>

<p>As a tax lawyer and writer, I have encountered thousands if not tens-of-thousands of successful people. Based on my observations ( which may not be scientific or even provable), I have come to the following conclusions:</p>

<li>For most majors, the undergraduate school that you attend doesn’t matter! Yes, you heard me correctly. The vast, vast, majority of sucessful people that I have met did not go to an ivy league undergrad school, MIT, major LAC or even CC top 20! In fact, many of the people that I know that attended Harvard or other ivys went into some form of think tank or research and are not hugely successful, at least monetarily. </li>
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<p>2.Morover, the major involved in the undergraduate area was also irrelevant. I have met just as many successful accounting majors as I have people who majored in philosophy, political science, biology, english, engineering, computer science, entrepreneurship etc. I will admit,however, that I haven’t met a lot of successful folks who simply major in general business administration. </p>

<li>There is an exception to observation number one for people who majored in music and art. I can say that many of the successful people in music did attend at one point or another a conservatory, that even I heard of, such as Juliard, Cincinnati Conservatory, Peabody, New England Conservatory etc. There seems to be a decent correlation between making it in music and attending a “name” conservatory. However, it could be that the admission’s process weeds out the unfit and screens for the best. Thus, it could be self-fulfilling. I should also note that I have met some successful musicians in rock bands that had little formal school training in music schools. Successful artists usually have also attended some name school such as RISD, Pratt, SAIC, MICA, etc. </li>
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<p>One interesting thing is that I have met a number of folks who have “made it” in TV or in movies. There doesn’t seem to be any correlation between the type of school that they attended as an undergraduate and what made them successful. Some went to Harvard and Yale and some attended schools with less prestige. There honestly doesn’t seem to be a correlation. I will note that many of these people did attend some type of training with a specialist or attended some non-accredited classes in acting or voice with a sucessful trainer.</p>

<li>What does matter, however, is drive, and determination ,and good people skills. Most of the sucessful people ( and I am judging success by monetary gains,which can be arguably wrong), are very driven folks that have great people skills. Also, many did very well scholastically in their undergraduate schools (3.5 or better),which leads me to believe that top grades from a decent school is a much better indicator of success than mediocre to decent grades from a top school. I am not sure why this is so. It could be that top grades get folks into better graduate and professional schools. It could be that driven people are driven throughout their life in all that they do including studying.</li>
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<p>Also, good people and social skills are a MUST. This may be the most important skill of all. Successful people must learn to market themselves to clients, customers, bosses etc. Having good people skils can make a world of difference.</p>

<p>Bottom line: Please chill out, and tell your kids to relax regarding the process. It really doesn’t matter that much which school they attend, unless they want to become a musician or artist. However, once they do attend a college, give it all that they can, while attempting to enjoy the college experience. Just my 2 cents.</p>

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<p>Thank you.</p>

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<p>Not to worry taxguy. In a few short weeks the boards will return to the usual discussions of extra long sheets and ski jackets. ;)</p>

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<p>I see one thing in your reasoning however, that just does not gel with my own mindset. That is, you are making an assumption that people are selecting colleges with an eye on what comes after...like which college is a key to success, career, grad school, etc. I gather many do think this way as per some discussions I read here or have heard others discuss. But I guess I never looked at picking a college with the "what comes next" in mind. The purpose of picking a college isn't which one is the best ticket to the next step or to a successful life. </p>

<p>I do have a kid at a very selective college but the choice to go there, plus her criteria in selecting schools to apply to was specific to her own learning needs and general interests. The fact that it is a selective college only means something to her in regard to that she craves challenge and also would enjoy being with peers of that type of motivation. The concept of where a degree from this college could take her did not come up. It all was about picking which school felt like the one she felt fit what she wanted in a school. </p>

<p>Second child is applying to mucho selective programs because frankly, in her field, just about every program is selective (BFA degree programs in Musical Theater). As I chatted with a mom I met this past weekend at a college audition, she was talking about where her D was applying and I mentioned where mine was. Usually the people you meet at these auditions have a similar list of schools as there is a small finite number of programs out there. Anyway her list only overlapped my D's by three schools and was quite a different list. She had many BA programs on the list. I mentioned that my child was just going for BFA programs and she questioned me about why did I think her career prospects would be better by going for a BFA degree as opposed to a BA degree. Now, I never even thought of that concept. Her choice to go for the professional BFA degree programs had nothing to do with getting a leg up on a job later over a kid who chose the programs her child was going for. Rather, she wanted this TYPE of college program...this type of training....the intensity and specialty nature of it. She does not want a BA degree in acting or a liberal arts degree. She craves this intensive BFA type program. She kept going on about how this did not make her any more employable. Well, of course, it does not. That was not the motivation behind the choice!</p>

<p>Anyway, while I agree with the points in your post, I don't think everyone is picking a school (top one or not) because it is a ticket to "success". </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>TexasTaxiMom...let's not forget the egg crate discussion last year...one of the longest threads here! ;)</p>

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<p>Soozievt. it seems that if you are thinking of your child attending a strong BFA, you are considering what that school will do for your child. </p>

<p>I am not stating that attending a top school is bad or undesireable. It just isn't worth the stress and emotion that seems to be engendered in both students and parents. It certainly isn't the "be all or end all" for life or for success. This is the only point I was making.</p>

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<p>I think this site needs a point/counterpoint that is permanent on this subject. How many of these posts have I seen in the months I've read through these threads? How about a page with an arguement for going to a top school being hugely beneficial, and one espousing that it's not at all important. People could contribute every stat, survey and study they know of. Then we can all just read the one we agree with!</p>

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<p>Taxguy, as mentioned, I certainly agree with your points and again that where you attend college is not going to be the end all and be all of your success later in life. </p>

<p>I only was saying that not everyone who is choosing schools is choosing them with "later success" as a criteria. Some, and I would say my own kids fall into this category, are selecting schools that they simply really like, and meet personal criteria of what they want in a college experience. The schools are not so much seen as a ticket to something else. It is a general understanding that getting an education itself is something that will help you later in life reach your goals. But WHICH college that is, is not seen so much as the point on the "later in life success" issue. </p>

<p>As far as my own kid choosing to apply to BFA programs, it was totally her choice. She has wanted to do this for years and her passion in this field has been ongoing her entire life. I never suggested BFA programs. She is a very driven individual. She knows what she wants to do, craves intense training programs, and cannot see herself doing anything else. So, it wasn't like she said, I'll pick BFA cause of where it can get me because a BA program cannot. In fact, she is so set on what she wants to do that at many programs, they have you mark on the audition form if you do not get into their BFA for musical theater, will you accept admission into the BFA for acting or the BA program for theater or any other major and she has written NO. That is her choice. She knows what she wants to study and how she wants to spend the next few years of her life getting more training beyond what she has done so far. So, no, I do not think this choice of school was about where it will get her next as much as about this is the kind of training she craves. She always planned to go to college but this is the type of program that she is attracted to and fits her needs and desires. Also when you mention attending a "strong BFA", I have to smile because all these BFA programs are so difficult to get into (all have acceptance rates that hover around 5%), that I am not sure the deal right now is about getting into a "strong" program as much as about getting into them at all. Sure, getting into a well regarded program is nice but just getting into any of them is great. Plus, any of the programs will basically give her what she is looking for. </p>

<p>As you have said, and I wholeheartedly agree, motivated and driven people will succeed no matter which school they went to. I could liken this to the fact that my own kids come from a rural no name public school, not an elite prep school or not one of the performing arts high schools, and I still believe each is driven and motivated to reach her goals and has as a good a chance as anyone because the PERSON gets into college, not just the school they came from. Same with in life. The person gets the job, not the school they came from. So selecting a college mostly should involve making sure that college fits what you are looking for in a college experience. After that, the rest will follow if you are driven to attain it. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>As some of you know, I am very happy where my son ended up as far as college choices go. I think that he landed in the perfect program for him, with lots of individual attention and the possibility of a customized major curriculum that he has a role in creating. But it is not at a name-brand school. In fact, the school's overall reputation did not factor into the equation to the extent that I originally thought it would. But the reputation of the program WITHIN that school was everything...</p>

<p>This morning I had breakfast with a friend whose daughter might be going to the big large public here in the state. I was wondering why when he first told me (wasn't she "better than that?"), but then he told me. He said that he and his daughter were unbelievably impressed when they were there for her audition for the particular department she was interested in. They only accepted a small number of students a year into the program because of the individualized attention, they had slots already reserved in one of the dorms for these students, etc, etc. When she was accepted, they called. One of the faculty members made a subsequent call to let them know how much they wanted her in the program. Sounds to me like another match.</p>

<p>My son was accepted into this same school (large department, his safety acceptance) with what seems to me to be an attitude from them of "if we see you in the Fall, then OK, otherwise, OK."</p>

<p>So really the name of the school had nothing to do with the treatment or the quality of education the student will be receiving. It's all in the department or program. Now realize that these will be very competitive and even in a large public university, there will be auditions, portfolios, interviews, etc., but if you can get into programs like these, I think it's better than an Ivy or Top-25 acceptance.</p>

<p>Now, my big caveat to all of this: Not all students know exactly what they want to do in such specific detail as my son and my friend's daughter. It that case, you need to look for the criteria I mentioned above in the school itself vs. an individual department. THEN the reputation of the school for small classes and individualized attention becomes of prime importance.</p>

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<p>Hey, looking back at it, for my older d., it probably didn't matter all that much. Regardless of where she went, given what she studies, she'll be unemployable in any case!</p>

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<p>For those kids who know which niche they want, often they go to the HYPS of the field. And as Susan pointed out, the accept rates at some of these programs can be very low indeed even when they are housed in non selective school. Friend of mine was really upset when her son was rejected from a college that accepts practically every warm body that applies, but he was going for a select program that is very limited in their acceptances. Despite a superb profile, he was turned down.</p>

<p>But actually most fields do have a road to study that is less selective. Susan, there are BFA programs in MT that are not in that 3-5% range. Check out Santa Fe, Catawbwa, Webster, Milliken, Roosevelt, Northern Illinois, North Texas--I can give you a list. Just as Dig must know some programs in his son's field that are not as highly regarded or as selective as the one his son has chosen. So, in a sense, you guys are going for the HYPs of the field, as there are certainly other less selective options.</p>

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<p>As my husband quotes, "Cream always rises to the top"......(He still wants our kids to go to Harvard, though!) LOL</p>

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<p>I question the concept that students don't select colleges with an "eye" on what comes next. If they don't, then what are the criteria? The true products of the school are the graduates. That, in my mind, is where the rankings are fatally flawed. College is the process, while the graduate is the product.</p>

<p>I agree, success in life is measured by many more variables than earnings. Each student should have his/her own calculus on what they intend to take from their educational opportunities and identify good candidates that fit the schema. However, I believe we've lost the bubble with the collective mindset that appears to, more and more, dominate the discussion. I sample this forum and see way to many posts that discuss differences in SAT scores, as if they have any impact on what's ultimately offered at an individual school. </p>

<p>In fact, if I take my point to the next level, college is a kind of incubator. A true measure of a great school would be one that consistently took students who had yet to fully demonstrate their potential and turned out graduates who are disproportionately successful in their chosen endeavors. That would be a preferable environment for four years to a school that passed through an annual crop of undergrads while focusing its resources on attracting yet another Nobel winner who loathes teaching. Of course, we don't have tools to measure such a thing, so we'll continue to obesess on what we're told to value.</p>

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<p>Jamimom, yes, you do bring up a point that there are some BFA programs that are less selective than this pile. My daughter wanted to stay in the northeast quandrant of the US and that also took out many schools that offer this major like you name. And like my other kid, it was not a prestige thing as to which school looks better or will take her places in the future, as more to which programs really fit the type of thing she is looking to do and the type of kids who attend who are like her in this way. So, I am not knocking selective schools because how could I...I have a kid in an Ivy no less but she'd be the first to tell you that Ivy was not her goal....she just wanted a school of a certain level of academic challenge with students of that nature....of course many schools fit that one criteria. But of course there are much easier schools to get into. Same with D2, who wants a challenging intense BFA program with kids of a similar level of passion, talent, experience. So, part of the college selection did have to do with fit of difficulty/challenge, learning needs, types of students....no question. I only meant that the choices were not made with the idea of which program would lead to success or job or grad school, etc. </p>

<p>Mini, I do have to smile at your comment about no matter where your D went to school, she may still be unemployable (in the arts) and I could say the same of D2 who is going into the performing arts. So, let's just say that "employability" was not a factor in choosing her schools. </p>

<p>Digmedia...you bring up a point that is very true in my second child's case. The names of her colleges are not necessarily top or selective schools. Many who would hear her list of schools would assume, sure, she can get in THERE....cause if she were a "normal" applicant, yeah, she is definitely more than qualified. But the general public would have no idea that the small specialized degree program in that very same institution is way more selective with much much lower rates of admission than the college itself. People in the industry know that these programs are difficult to get into but otherwise, almost anyone else hears her list of schools and thinks, no sweat, she's in. I have to educate them and say that we are nervous if she will get into any or even have choice as the odds are tough. And like your son, much of her time is going to be spent IN these programs, so MUCH of her choice of where to go (if she is even lucky to HAVE any choice in April) will weigh heaviest on the program itself, unlike with my other kid where size, location, and lots else came into play. Also some of her colleges are very large schools but the programs themselves are very small and that is one saving grace where she can be part of a small group in a larger whole.
Susan</p>

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<p>Processed out posed: "I question the concept that students don't select colleges with an "eye" on what comes next. If they don't, then what are the criteria? "</p>

<p>I can only answer in one situation...I will give my current college freshman's criteria in college selection. First, she wanted a college that was challenging for her level of ability. She is an excellent student and wanted a learning environment where there was that level of challenge and the students were also motivated. She wanted a medium sized school on the east coast. She wanted to be near where there were things to do off campus if she chose...particularly things in walking distance, though did not want to be downtown in a city with no campus. She wanted a college that had an architecture major in a liberal arts program, not a professional degree program. She wanted opportunities to study abroad. She wanted the school to have an alpine ski team, at any level, club or varsity. She wanted to investigate the opportunities on campus to continue in other EC passions....dance, theater, tennis, soccer, instrumental music. These were some initial criteria. Then upon visiting schools, she set out to explore the living situations, the academic programs, and meeting the kids on campus. She had to really like all these different criteria. These differed from school to school and she listed pros/cons of each school. She liked the open curriculum at one school but then another school had residential colleges. Some things she coud bend on, some she could not. But the idea of which school would look good for grad school admissions or job hunting, did NOT enter her mind. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Susan, you are obviously very bright with very accomplished kids.
I don't get one thing (OK I don't get many things). If your daughter has such a passion that only the BFA programs would work for her, why doesn't she have any safeties? Even if the safeties are not in the northeast? It seems like geography is more important than this incredible passion. </p>

<p>Taxguy great OP. Of course there are people who are exceptions, but so what. Why dwell on the exceptions? The post rings true for most.</p>

<p>There are exceptions for almost everything. There are babies born boys that aren't really boys. Doesn't mean that most boys born boys aren't boys.</p>

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<p>"Mini, I do have to smile at your comment about no matter where your D went to school, she may still be unemployable (in the arts) and I could say the same of D2 who is going into the performing arts. So, let's just say that "employability" was not a factor in choosing her schools."</p>

<p>Some day you may find her standing on a corner with tin cup, and a little cardboard sign that reads, "Please Help. Will Compose for Food." Though, actually, a new field seems to be opening up - composing music for transit stations to drive loitering teenagers away.</p>

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<p>Dstark: my oldest definitely picked with geography in mind. "Not in Texas, not touching Texas." Futhermore, as he sees himself hopefully being employed somewhere in the northeast (with his "you want fries with that" major) he figured that a degree from a school in the northeast would at least ring a bell with a potential employer. If he were to return to Texas, he'd return to that "huh?" look he gets when someone asks where he is in school. (Which is usually followed by "couldn't get in to UT?")</p>

<p>As for the clout of his school, we're just pleased he's attending a college and doing well--even in the absence of egg crates. How could I forget that thread Soozie!</p>

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<p>Dstark wrote:
"I don't get one thing (OK I don't get many things). If your daughter has such a passion that only the BFA programs would work for her, why doesn't she have any safeties? Even if the safeties are not in the northeast? It seems like geography is more important than this incredible passion."</p>

<p>Let me see if I can answer this. If you were to read the Musical Theater Forum on this site, you would see that many don't consider any BFA programs to be safety schools. In fact, most would have as a safety for BFA, a BA school. My daughter does not want to simply major in theater. She wants to do a professional training program in Musical Theater. The BFA programs that Jamimom mentioned above are not as "tops" as some others, but clearly are not considered safeties as they are still competitive, if I expressed that correctly. A true safety school would be a BA program. In any case, like any kid who has location preferences with going to college.....(ie., my older child wanted the New England or Middle Atlantic States and within range of skiing....though WE gave her NO geographical limits), this second child wanted the eastern section of the country but not including the south. This was not an issue because truthfully the majority of programs tend to fall in this region. There are some in the south, however. Since she was not going to apply to a zillion and chose just 8 to apply to, it seemed to make sense to apply to ones in the northeastern section of the country. As I said, a "safety" in this field would have been to add on NON BFA MT programs, and she cannot see herself doing that. The programs Jami mentioned are BFA programs but not as top tier but not really safeties either. Because this IS a passion, it is not like geography came first. Rather, she is NOT considering something ELSE. She is sticking with the passion. For instance, she told schools she would not accept their BA program if not admitted to the BFA. She got admitted to a school but is deferred on their BFA for MT at this point until all auditions are completed but would not consider going without being admitted to their BFA program. I guess that is what I mean about her passion. She is not willing to accept some other type of study/program. I don't think she needs to go outside the east or eastern midwest as there are enough choices in this area. I believe that even though this is a very competitive type of program and the odds are daunting, she is an appropriate candidate for admission or we would not have entered this process. </p>

<p>I can fairly assess where she is at in the field given her history and what professionals in the field think. I think her list of schools is exactly the same of MANY of her friends from all over the country who are also opting to try for BFA degree programs. She has friends she has worked with in almost all of these programs as well. She has a long way to go to see the final outcome. It is early yet. While the process does feel nervewracking, and my D has asked that I not post each admission result, I can tell you that she is already admitted to a BFA program with a significant merit scholarship, so I think things will work out. While you never know what will happen when you are in such a selective process, I think we have guided her to try for programs where she is an appropriate candidate, which does not mean she will get in but she has a chance as much as anyone, we believe. She only needs one. I hope she gets a choice but so far, things are feeling a little less stressful with this process.</p>

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<p>Susan, I am glad to hear that she is already in a program. Has to take the pressure off.</p>