When I say unhooked, I really mean unhooked. Asian, from overrepresented region, competitive high school that isn’t feeder, not LGBTQ, poor, URM, legacy, recruited, first-generation, and I am upper middle-class.
I’m going to A- a class heading into my junior year. Now, I’ve heard it a thousand times: “4.0 isn’t everything, one A- will not set you back, etc, etc.”…but every time I hear about an applicant with my demographic who got into an HYPSM, they had a 4.0 or were within the top 1% of my class (high school is filled with kids who study all day and do nothing else, so I’m definitely not 1%). So clearly a 4.0 does mean something compared to a 3.98.
So…is there still a realistic hope for me getting into one of these schools? Obviously, these are not the only great places out there and fit is also important. However, I’d like to keep my chances as high as possible before I apply and I was just curious.
I can’t find his post but @eyemgh writes a compelling message that there are 24,000 or so High Schools in the country - and each has a valedictorian and salutatorians looking at these same schools - so even if you are the best of the best, your odds are slim.
You say you have a 3.8 - but how is your rigor? How are your ECs?
Like anyone, you need Reaches (which these are for all), targets, and safeties.
My daughter’s valedictorian had a 4.0, rigor, and a 36 ACT. She applied to 18 schools, 16 in the US News top 20. She was rejected to all 16. She got in at NYU with no aid and will be attending U of Tennessee in the Fall.
Don’t fall in live with any school. Put forth your best package - and find the school that’s right for you. After all, there’s not necessarily consistency in the school’s you mention - how do you know they are right for you.
Also, don’t forget, there’s not a flagship in the country that doesn’t attract students like you and better - who go there due to cost, location, or otherwise.
Rigor is solid (12 APs by graduation), ECs are my strong suit. Got national attention for a nonprofit, recognized at national level for writing, published research, varsity sport, etc and almost all ECs are centered around a “theme.”
If it weren’t for my ECs, which are pretty unique, I wouldn’t even be asking this. I just want to make sure - although I am not completely doing my ECs for apps - that not having a 4.0 doesn’t take me out of the running for HYPSM, because otherwise I am wasting my time. In other words, if 3.98 - which, btw, is not the same as 3.8 - and great ECs/essays doesn’t get me into a top school, then I might as well take it easy for the next few years, get a 3.7-3.8, and go to my state flagship.
So yeah, that’s my (first-world) dilemma.
Sigh. One more time for the kids in the back: the plural of anecdote is not data. That’s who you hear about. According to actual data, 70% of accepted students at Harvard have a 4.0, and 22.25% are between a 3.75 and a 4.0. Now, it is true that a whopping 43% of white students accepted to Harvard between 2009 & 2014 were either legacy or athletes- but that still means that more than half of them were neither. And once you get away from Harvard the legacy weight drops dramatically (although Stanford comes close).
From here it doesn’t look like “just curious”- it looks like “I go to a school where the winners go to these big name schools and I am anxious that I won’t make the cut 2 years from now”.
95% of the applicants to those schools will be rejected. Most of them will be strong, credible candidates. The math is horrific. But just as horrific is that you, as a clearly smart, hard working, high achieving 15? 16? year old, are looking at their high school experience through a single lens: can I grab the brass ring?
I think that is profoundly sad.
This probably won’t help, but read this:
tl;dr- no, 3.98 instead of 4.0 is not the reason why you don’t get into a university that accepts ~5% of applicants.
ps, for you and anybody else wondering: LGTBQ is NOT A HOOK
The point I was trying to make in the post @tsbna44 referenced is that with ANY GPA, you’re most likely not getting into those schools. You might get lucky and show something in your app that they’re looking for. No one can tell you what that is in advance. So, sure, try, but plan on being rejected and be pleasantly surprised if you aren’t.
For my money the sweet spot is schools known for great teaching and placement that are affordable. In the end it’s FAR more about what you do with your opportunities in college than it is about where you go.
I missed the 9 - I knew 3.98. Are you in the running? Sure. There might be a kid with a 25 ACT and 3.5 who gets in if they have something compelling. Are you a likely admit? Nope. That’s why you need to have targets - maybe like Santa Clara, Rochester, a mid-tier UC, and then safeties (one or two). btw - you can score a sweet deal at schools like Arizona and Alabama, amongst many others or get into the very respected ASU Honors College - and save your family a ton of coin.
So do what you are doing and keep a wide set of options - rank, in and of itself, means little. You are buying into a hype - that hype, if it even works for you, is very very expensive.
Plus, the habits you form in HS will undergird your work ethic in college. It’s those who are highly involved and knock it out of the park academically that enjoy the greatest successes, no matter what school they go to.
To repeat the above: a 3.98 versus 4.0 will not make a difference. I don’t think you understand “holistic” admissions. Your EC’s will be more important than that .02 in GPA.
What caught my eye was your statement that if your chances are low for HYPSM, then you are going to “take it easy.” It is indeed sad that the only reason you work hard, is to get into one of those schools.
If working less hard toward the misguided goal of a perfect GPA leaves you more time for EC’s, to develop interests and grow as a person, then fine, work less hard.
Those who spend high school focused on top schools really lose out during those important years- whether they get in or not. Your chances are low like everyone else. Live your life the way you want to, not to suit HYPSM, and you will end up in the right place.
It sounds like you are in an environment that puts pressure on you, that makes you feel like you are not a winner if you don’t get into those schools. I am sorry for that. Try to resist.
Wow. So all the hard work is only worth it if you get into a Top 20 school? (Top 20 being, I assume, based on a list in USNWR.) You must realize that there isn’t that much difference between Yale and Wesleyan, or Princeton and Emory. What about Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona, which are widely regarded as the best LACs whose grads are easily as accomplished and successful as grads from HYPSM. Again, not much difference between those colleges and Colgate, or Colby, or Haverford.
And what about all those Stamps and Coca Cola Scholars, who go to schools ranging from Duke to UVA to Dartmouth to University of Mississippi to Miami in Ohio. Those students are easily just as accomplished, and often more so, than anyone at HYPSM. Prestige is not everything.
I think your odds of getting into any of HYPSM are at the best, well under ten percent. By the time you get rid of all the spots taken by hooked students and athletes, your odds appear to be even lower.
I suggest continuing to keep your grades high, and stop obsessing about the A-. Make a balanced list of schools to apply to. Apply to colleges where you might get a full tuition or full ride scholarship. A lot of amazing students go to colleges nowhere near the Top 20 because they are following the money. Your success in life is not going to be determined by the college you attend. It will be determined by you.
To add to this, what about the fact that all but one of the NASA facility directors, including JPL, went to state schools, most of them random ones. The lone private school represented…RPI.
“Asian, from overrepresented region, competitive high school that isn’t feeder, not LGBTQ, poor, URM, legacy, recruited, first-generation, and I am upper middle-class.”
If this [I’m discriminated against] attitude comes across in the application, you certainly won’t get into any T10 schools.
I’m sad that education appears to have turned into a zero sum game for some kids. I see it in my kids’ peers. The spark and joy of learning and discovery is not there. 4.0 GPAs were unheard of when I was in high school. The harsher (or more realistic) grading system, looking back on it, was rather liberating.
To the OP. Study for the sheer pleasure of learning. The rest will follow. And as compmom said, resist the nonsense.
I’m honored that so many random people have taken the time to write responses like this. So thanks.
That being said, some random comments. I don’t think any of them will go down well with anyone here but whatever:
The percentage of students who come out of HYPSM and are successful is significantly higher than the percentage of students who come out of state school and are successful. Simple example - let’s say I want to go into consulting and become good at it. Only the top 2%, or even less, of people who want to go to McKinsey are getting into McKinsey from Wesleyan and Emory. From Williams/Amherst it’s probably 6% but from HYPSM, I guarantee the percentage is much higher. Obviously there are other consulting firms out there, but why not keep my options as open as possible? I’m sure there are other fields that are similar (maybe not many, but each of these fields will have to be pretty lucrative).
I don’t care about Top-20. HYPSM is what matters to me, because it is a tangible goal that I can set and hit by 18. This nothing to do with my parents, who couldn’t care less where I go, or my school (where a ridiculous number of people go to state school). This is something I want to achieve. I don’t know why, and I really don’t think it’s fair for a stranger on the Internet to psychologically evaluate and let me know why I want this. You don’t know me nearly well enough to presume you know why I want to go to X school, with all due respect.
Is the “odds of HYPSM less than 10%” thing because low GPA, because demographic (which, to address another person, I don’t care about for an attitude reason. I care because the amount you need to accomplish varies significantly between demographic and this changes my approach, and more specifically time management), because lack of extracurricular strength… please don’t just say “all of them.”
Lastly - your point about scholarships is interesting. However, my family is willing to pay 2/3s of tuition at any school in the country. At most, this puts me $110,000 in debt and if I get into to HYPSM (or maybe UChicago/Caltech/Columbia), maintain a decent GPA, and get decent at a relevant field I really, really don’t think paying this off will be a problem.
A) it’s great to have goals but don’t put your self worth on getting in
B) you have a lot of suffering ahead of you feel debt is ok, especially $110k which is an INSANE amount and more than you can legally borrow btw (27k or so ) unless your parents are willing to take on private loans. Yea them, not you.
Nothing wrong with goals. I think peoples concerns are it sounds like you get in or you are a failure. That’s unhealthy although not as unhealthy as debt.
Btw harder to get into McKinsey/BCG, etc than any school you mention. Do you even know what their consultants do ? Do you even know if you would enjoy the work ? You better bcuz in those jobs you have no free time. They are 100 hrs a week +. And they would not pay you enough to cover that debt. Then there’s your grad school expense.
No school is worth that kind of debt. Hence so many brilliant kids go to high merit state or LACs
Based on your drive and knowledge, I believe you will be very successful. Yes, if you get a job at “MBB,” you’ll pay able to pay off $110K in debt. It’s the folks that went to regional or for-profit colleges with > $100K in debt and marginal prospects that will be in trouble.
If you don’t get MBB as an analyst, you can still go there as an associate after a top MBA.
Okay. Let’s say I had to pay 20K in private loans, which is a possibility - my parents, to be clear, can afford the full $320K and maybe more, but will probably make me pay 0-50K for responsibility purposes. Then I think your whole argument disappears.
So then, when you get a free ride to any school, why not go to the best school possible?
The usual response after this is “fit” but to me, “fit” is achieving my goals. Introspectively, I know that I will be happiest at one of the colleges I keep talking about, and no amount of “how much I like the campus architecture” or “this particular course style is great” will change that.
So, my best path is grinding for HYPSM which, to be honest, is kind of fun. I like working hard to achieve this goal. However, if the goal is unattainable then the path becomes somewhat aimless. Therefore, I’d like to know if the goal is unattainable and this is where my concern with a 3.98 GPA comes in.
Grind for it. Just prepare for all situations mentally.
Many a kid on the CC applied to 8 schools. Got into none.
My daughter just finished HS. Her valedictorian had a 4.0 UW, 11APs, 36 on the ACT. Applied to 16 of the US News top 20. 0 for 16. Got into NYU with no aid. Is going to U of Tenn. lots of brilliant kids go to most every state flagship.
You also have plenty of high earning kids at those schools.
You really have no clue about fit tho. Saying you’ll adjust because you want to be there is very short sighted. You need to spend four years somewhere. Day after day after day. Also things like major matter. For example if you wanted to study supply chain, ASU is tops and places in consulting.
- and great ECs/essays doesn’t get me into a top school, then I might as well take it easy for the next few years, get a 3.7-3.8, and go to my state flagship.