Do you really want to be on the bridge designed by the engineer who had great effort and little aptitude? Or the surgeon who tried hard and was timely but incompetent? In the adult world, results matter. Yes, we all have to pass through hoops, whether it is the bar exam for lawyers or the road test for 16 year olds. I don’t really care how noble your intentions are if you can’t perform.
call me stubborn - I curve or round grades slightly, but I don't give extra credit opportunities to the "special pleaders" as I call them. For any excuse. It says so right in my Syllabus. I always have to remind some of them of that. Sorry, not happening.
I’ve never asked for a grade bump, but I’ve never needed to. I do ask for points back on assignments when I am certain the grader (usually not the prof) made a mistake. I’m a bit annoyed (amusedly so) that I got an A, at a uni that gives A+, this semester - in a class where I was by far the top student and did extra work, discussed ideas in office hrs, etc., but the prof doesn’t like awarding A+ in that particular class (he does in every other).
However, if a student is a small amount away (maybe <1%) and asks for a grade bump for an actual reason (e.g. ‘I found out the morning of the final that my dad died, which is why I got a 70 when I needed 72’ - and not ‘because I want it’), it isn’t wrong to ask.
My advisor gets at least 20 grade bump requests per semester. He told me he’s granted two in the past six years - both for truly extenuating circumstances. He’s a lenient grader and I would have had to try hard to get less than an A on any assignment in my classes with him, though. The distinction in his class is A vs A+.
@roycroftmom I think you missed the point – I was more focused on “does the current system give the results we want?”
No, I wouldn’t want my bridge designed by an engineer who struggled in math. It would probably not affect his bridge-building ability if he got a C in European history. But – does the current system focusing on GPA make that distinction?
Or, does the GPA system serve the kid who tried his hand at engineering and bombed, discovered he’s brilliant at history and political science and government studies, but doesn’t have the GPA to get into law school because of those tough STEM classes?
If he got better grades, he probably would have stuck with engineering.
@intparent I’m not sure I see your point? My hypothetical lawyer should have gotten better grades and stuck with engineering?
Once upon a time, I was drafted as an adjunct when the regular lecturer had a heart attack. This was a favor to the Dean, whom I knew from a professional association. At the conclusion of my third and last semester of teaching, I had a student, who earned a D (should have been an F) tell me that he needed at least a C- to transfer to Large State Flagship U. I declined to change the mark. His mother called to no avail. Several weeks later, when I checked the faculty website, I noted that the D I had assigned was changed to C by the Dean of the Faculty, without seeing the student’s work, or speaking to me.
Needless to say, I shared my displeasure with the Dean and declined to teach any more!
The problem, @aroundhere, is that the same is true throughout the K-12 education system as well. Lawyers really don’t need algebra, so why did we make them take it in secondary school and base college admissions on it? I admire the British system that tracks and specializes early, but there isn’t much support for it here.
Even on this website, many kids think they should be the exception to the rules. When they ask if we will delete or edit a post, we tell them, no, the Terms of Service are clear that we don’t edit or delete on request. Then they usually beg that their lives will be ruined if we don’t fulfill their request. It gets old. I have a response that I copy and paste - over and over and over…
MaineLonghorn, if you don’t mind me asking, why would kids ask for a post to be deleted?
“Poster’s remorse” - they regret posting so many details. They are sure that everyone in their high school has figured out who they are.
Every month I have dinner with a long time group of friends who are educators, principals, APs, administrators, guidance counselors, college access coaches. We talk about different things that happen during our school day, kids, academic policies, exchange best practices, etc.
One friend who is a principal, shared with us an email her D, who is a adjunct at upstate recently received from one of her students:
When I first read this, I responded back, Seriously? Are you kidding me? Let’s table this, because it may need some alcohol (and you know I don’t drink) and my schedule is full today so I don’t have time to bang my head on the desk until it bleeds.
This is a request that we all know all to well including the threats of an escalation process.
I used to get a lot of request from both students and parents to ask the teacher if Egbert/Egberta can do an extra credit project. My response usually is “Did the teacher assign the extra credit project to the entire class, so that everyone has the same opportunity to raise their grades?” What does the syllabus state? My school requires that all teachers submit a copy of their syllabi and grading rubrics to administration each semester for approval and that they get back a copy of their syllabus signed by both the teacher and the student the first week of class each semester. This way, everyone knows that the teacher’s policies are.
Personally, I am not a fan of extra credit projects, because I feel that it rewards you for not taking care of your business at the expense of the ones that turn in assignments on time and grind it out to get the work done. If you do what you need to do, you will not need extra credit.
I agree. When you think about it, if extra credit is not offered to the entire class, it is profoundly unfair and probably a violation of academic teaching standards at most schools.
@roycroftmom I don’t actually have a problem with the engineer taking European History or the lawyer taking math (Justice Robert’s math-phobic comments about the statistical evidence in the gerrymandering case show that even lawyers need a little math here and there).
The point was about students worrying about GPA. That grades aren’t just about your achievement in one class but also used for a number of outside factors. Anything from losing scholarships to getting into your major. Academic risk, trying new things and possibly failing, is a lot riskier these days than it used to be.
I can sympathize with professors who just want grades to be black and white, no exceptions ever. But I see the kids’ point of view, too. Life comes at them fast sometimes.
My daughter had a history class last term with six units and unit papers were due for any four units of the student’s choice. That seemed like enough rigor to grade fairly and enough flexibility to let “life happen.” Or the classes that drops one low test grade before calculating the final grade.
Maybe we need something like for GPAs, too. A retroactive pass/fail to hide a bad course here and there so that small mistakes don’t become huge ones. Egbert might deserve that C-, but does he deserve to lose all his financial aid retroactively after his first semester, too? (I wouldn’t even think that should be legal to change the cost of past courses based on grades!)
Asking for an extra credit assignment is a tactful way of saying that you are not asking for a free lunch. I found that professors actually respond by just curving or rounding grades slightly as you said, like 0.1~0.2%, without actually giving the extra credit assignment. Maybe the prof gave the curve to everybody against the syllabus. No way to know and not interested anyway.
For math and science courses, I am a fan of classes where what they will be tested on is challenging but clear and detailed with a lot of practice problems are made available.
There should be no surprises on the test. If they can all learn the material, I am happy to give out a lot of A’s, but they will have to have invested a lot of time and effort to get to that point.
When I was in college, there were courses that Final exam (and midterm) defined 100% of grade and I got A+ in one of them hardly attending any class. Seeing the effort college kids these days put in to, I feel that grading might have deflated and not inflated.
Course in question is a studio art course.
Friend’s D took the issue to her Department Chair who backed her decision and the grade stands.
If student in question dropped courses, he would now owe money for financial aid, which he would have to repay anyway because the school has to repay the state/federal government. If one C- is going to sink Egbert’s GPA to the point that he can’t maintain a 2.0 for satisfactory academic progress to keep his financial aid, there are bigger issues going on.
In my house, if my kid cannot maintain a C average, I would have a problem paying for the “going away to college experience”.
Said you and a few other teachers and administrators who are no longer employed by the NYC DOE for changing grades to boost graduation rates and are subject of NY Post articles. Even in high school you get a window of a few days to change your grade at the end of the marking period. To change a transcript grade, you have to present your whole grade book as evidence for the grade change.
The passing of the Regents/AP exam can not be the basis for your grade change unless you had in your syllabus on the first day of class and you apply it to every single student in the class. This means if your kid rocks it out in the classroom and chokes on big stake tests, they will get the ding, the same way a kid who does just enough to get by, but is a really good test taker gets a boost in grade for doing well (remember the should by grade be raised based on getting a good AP score thread?).
My D still had an attendance requirement for her classes in law school even though the course grade was based on one exam
Well, one can’t get a credit from a lab course without attending the lab. Alas, many inexperienced (in art) students don’t realize how much talent, time, and effort it takes to do well in a studio art course, until they actually take one. They think it will be just another gen ed course and get rude awakening.
Living with a lab teacher, every semester there are students who miss 2,3,4 weeks of lab and then ask how to “make it up”. Um, you can’t. Some things just have to be done on time. I think you get to drop your lowest lab in this class, but that’s it. You cannot possibly miss a month of class and expect to pass–but people do expect to.