<p>Would socioeconomic affirmative action even help? I have a lower-class white friend who told me that no one at his school even thought about college cos their financial sitch sucked so bad. As soon as they got pooped out they HAD to find a job because they couldn't NOT do so.</p>
<p>^ exactly. if someone did well at such a school, that would prove that he/she is a hardworing minority and should be given aid</p>
<p>We can also of course just ignore the fact that the IQ gap between blacks and whites actually gets larger in the higher classes. </p>
<p>Are you implying that intelligence is a "white culture" thing?</p>
<p>That's what I say I'd think I think you'd think I think I think, you think? I didn't realize we were talking about subconsciouses. I thought we were making well-supported arguments. I fail to see how the inner workings of my brain come into play here. What's your point? You're skipping over the most important parts of my posts and nitpicking things to make it seem like you have a semblance of substance. Attack what I'm actually saying, not what you wish I were saying.</p>
<p>But, I always provide information when asked. My school is about 75% white, 10% Hispanic, and 15% African American.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Apparently no one looked at the graphs I posted so I'll post them here again. You know how to read them right? </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Education.png%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Education.png</a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Income.png%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Income.png</a></p>
<p>so stop using the URMs score less because they have fewer opportunities excuse</p>
<p>Thank you for those graphs.</p>
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Are you implying that intelligence is a "white culture" thing?
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</p>
<p>No. I'm implying that because IQ tests are designed by white people, there is an inherent cultural bias in the test that favors people who are from the same culture as the test designers. In other words, white people.</p>
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I fail to see how the inner workings of my brain come into play here.
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</p>
<p>The inner workings of your brain are terribly important in conversations about race and racism. The reality is that most racists don't know they are racist, or don't know they have a bias against black people. Racism tends to occur at the subconscious level, the level that makes snap judgements about people.</p>
<p>Ah, cross-posted with those graphs. My argument still holds though because its not about how much money people make, but about cultural biases in the SAT and IQ tests.</p>
<p>Yes, and our goal here is to work around the subconscious and present logical arguments. Can we get back on track? You still haven't addressed my main points.</p>
<p>IQ tests have a cultural bias? What, should the language section all be in ebonics? Even in logic and math, blacks score lower than whites, and I can't imagine how one could call cultural bias on questions asking the test-taker to imagine the rotation of shapes.</p>
<p>You act as though there is nothing logical about the subconscious. There isn't a single professor of psychology on the planet who wouldn't love to correct you.</p>
<p>As for cultural biases, of course you "can't imagine," it doesn't impact you at all. What may seem like straight forward language to you could seem convaluted to someone else. That's what the study of linguistics is all about.</p>
<p>Admittedly, this does less the explain drops for math scores (although is still present). For math I have two other explanations.</p>
<p>1) Geography and Socio-economics. African-Americans living in poverty tend to live in geographic clusters in cities. These areas, commonly refered to as "ghettos" tend to be filled with gang violence and drugs; the schools tend to be worthless. All around it is not an environment conducive to success. White Americans living in poverty are more spread out. Some live in cities, some in suburbs, some in rural areas. Very rarely do you see urban clusters of poor whites in the same you see for African Americans. As such more success conducive environments exist for white Americans of a lower socio-economic status.</p>
<p>2) Stereotype pressure. An interesting study (trying to dig it up) I once saw noted that for African Americans and whites with similar scores on the SAT, the African American students got more of the harder questions right, but messed up on more of the easier ones. This can be explained because of a stereotype pressure that would lead African Americans to believe that they are "less intelligent" than white people (a stereotype promoted by you). This causes them to second guess themselves on the easier questions, thereby lowering their scores. For more information I refer you to Stanford Professor of Social Psychology, Claude Steele: <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html</a></p>
<p>"Unlike blacks, the Jews have had the majority of their population lost in gas chambers and ovens and have been persecuted for THOUSANDS of years by others.</p>
<p>Unlike blacks, the Japanese were put into concentration camps during WWII, and still face the only remaining publically acceptable racism; that against Asians."</p>
<p>Yes we all understand that Jews and Asains have experienced hardships and have overcome them. But blacks have faced oppression almost their entire existance. Additionally, yes Jews and Asians have faced genocide and racism but from what i can recall Jews or Asains have never been lynched for picking up a book or prevented through segregation from gaining the same learning experience and education as their counterparts. Blacks were prevented from reading and writing for hundreds of years which would naturally put any race behind academically.
Furthermore, I dont think any race values education any less than the other. </p>
<p>And yes blacks are in most cases (not all) are dominate in sports thats because thats all we were able to do to provide a good living. Naturally they took the only things whites let them do and mastered it. As you all know Jackie Robinson was given the oppurtunity to play baseball with whites even before Brown vs. Education. Another setback in minority progression</p>
<p>I meant I dont think any race values education any more than the other.</p>
<p>You guys seem to think it is racist to note the obvious cultural differences between blacks and whites.</p>
<p>Saying this is racist is analagous to claiming that anyone saying Southerners have a drawl is prejudiced. The higher likelihood of black people having families early, having more sex, and valuing athletics is so glaringly apparent that it is simply a generalization not a racist remark. If you don't notice these differences, you're either an idiot or you've never been outside your house.</p>
<p>One of you said "If iin77 or SaveD were an employer, they'd say 'well, this guy's black, so he wants to have sex, and this guy's white, so he's a good candidate'" (or something very similar). And you are accusing us of being prejudiced? You're assuming just because we make a generalization, we apply it to every single person we meet. That is simply absurd. When I first meet someone, I don't judge them on their skin color. It's obvious that any one person can behave however they want, but that one person's characteristics do not define those of their culture.</p>
<p>If you look carefully, you see that SaveD (and I, to a lesser extent, as I'm sometimes rather incoherent) uses something called logic. We actually think about things instead of just outright condemning them or recapitulating what society has told us all our lives.</p>
<p>Someone also said "people in lower classes have dreams, too." Well, they definitely aren't the same dreams, because if they were, those people would be trying much harder. The people in lower classes do not try. There are plenty of complete morons in my AP classes, but they put in the effort and scrape by. Anyone who wants to take an AP class can.</p>
<p>There have been times when I wished there was an AA for poor people... I'd practically have guaranteed admission to any college in the country then.
So why isn't there an AA-like program for poor people? It's because they aren't actually at an innate disadvantage. Neither are minorities...</p>
<p>If I can get into college, so can any minority. I have no greater an advantage than anyone else.</p>
<p>You sound like the ****ed off kid who never made it...and you go through your whole life blaiming people for your misfortunes.</p>
<p>If you wanna discuss disadvantages talk about how celebrities get into schools because they are celebritys.... or Legacy applicants... or big donors to schools....those are the real disadvantages... In my case my dad had donated several millions to the ivy he attended and when it came time for me to apply i was invited to talk with the dean with my father and could have litterally entered that school with any scores... that is what i think is unfair not things that give oppurtunity to an unprivaleged race</p>
<p>
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Jews or Asains have never been lynched for picking up a book or prevented through segregation from gaining the same learning experience and education as their counterparts.
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</p>
<p>If you haven't noticed, Asians are from Asia and Jews are/were from Europe. How can you possibly say they weren't segregated from white America and denied the same possibilities? </p>
<p>You can't just arbitrarily contest that lynching for reading sets a culture back further than "lynching" for no reason at all.</p>
<p>Asians, Jews, and blacks have all had largely the same opportunities.</p>
<p>Oh... one more point: whether or not asians, blacks, and jews had the same opportunities is irrelevant anyway (so I guess you can ignore everything I just said, lol). All that matters is that the only thing holding them back today is themselves.</p>
<p>Hm. I dislike Affirmative Action as well, but I'll wait until someone disagrees with those opinions (again) before I post something. </p>
<p>I have to back up iin though. I've lived in the ghettos -- the black kids there simply had no drive, ambition, or even the attitudes of rising in society. I went to the same middle school with these kids, the same bus with them, and even lived in the same community. They were, now that I think back in retrospect, pretty pathetic.</p>
<p>I'll tell you now -- I am not imagining things when I say that they spent every day after school, wandering about in hordes and lounging about. They did not study. They did not work. They were loud, obnoxious, and at lack of a better word: "ghetto." I do not group them together because of their colour -- that just turned out to be the similarity. I sat home and studied; they ran outside and strutted -- that was the stark contrast.</p>
<p>I hold no respect for people who do not help themselves.</p>
<p>That said, I've known a grand total of three African Americans who I respect -- two girls and a guy.</p>
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You sound like the ****ed off kid who never made it...and you go through your whole life blaiming people for your misfortunes.
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</p>
<p>oh please. and you sound like the child who knows he didn't make it to college entirely on his own merits -- oh wait, so why are you arguing the other case again? I'd imagine you'd want people to make it to college on their own abilities, and not on some stereotype thrust upon them because of how they were born.</p>
<p>and oops. I guess any effort of mine to start capitalization is gone as well.</p>
<p>Well Taggart your comment was irrelevant considering AA does not support the blacks that your reffering to those are the kinds that dont even apply to college and thats what people dont understand. My dad is on the board of directors at Yale and a large doner so do have some insight..... They look at african americans with a strong background but unprivelaged life ... not hoodlums....they give opputunities to minorities who want to suceed.</p>
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I have to back up iin though. I've lived in the ghettos -- the black kids there simply had no drive, ambition, or even the attitudes of rising in society.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Because they're statistically defeated before they're even born. When all of the odds are against them, and stories of "rags-to-riches" are so few and far between that they're made into inspirational movies almost like fairy tales, and their parents and school systems provide no solid foundation for education or motivation, how can you expect these people to "help themselves"?</p>
<p>no, no. I realize that. haha, after a long night's talk with a Tufts admission officer.</p>
<p>you're missing my point that simply BEING african american or a minority should not give any sort of inherent advantage whatsoever. why shouldn't BEING asian give asians any advantage?</p>
<p>for the record though, I don't think AA should exist.</p>
<p>but how is Yale? I do intend on applying, but I haven't had a chance to do a real visit -- just walked around the campus a bit.</p>
<p>So... you're trying to say that I'm wrong because I "sound ****ed off"? You obviously have no ability to think critically about a situation.</p>
<p>Celebrities, etc constitute a very small proportion of college entrants. Their advantage is of course unjustified... but it has much less of an effect than AA.</p>
<p>Millions of dollars to get a kid into college? He probably should have donated that money to a charity that helps rich white people evade taxes and perpetuate their own supremacy.</p>
<p>I admit I am kind of bitter towards rich people, but I think it's at least a little warranted. There's this kid in my grade who lives a block away from my family's one story shack, whose house is likely one of the top 5 largest in our city. His parents tore down their neighbor's house so they could get a tennis court that their condescending, lazy, and antisocial (in the words of others, not me) son never even uses. They paid someone to carve out a tree in their front yard, where everyone who passes by can see it; where I see it twice every day: once going to school, once coming home. What did they choose this carving to portray? A Medieval nobleman proudly standing on the heads of three peasants. I think I have reason to be... indignant.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Because they're statistically defeated before they're even born. When all of the odds are against them, and stories of "rags-to-riches" are so few and far between that they're made into inspirational movies almost like fairy tales, and their parents and school systems provide no solid foundation for education or motivation, how can you expect these people to "help themselves"?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Statistics don't speak for real life. My parents are first-generation immigrants who came to this country with practically nothing but an education (that my father earned by throwing away a Phd. in Physics and teaching himself one in Computer Engineering). Motivation is not solely based on one's environment, but on the individual. It is a choice one has to make or not make.</p>
<p>Take me for example, my mother raised me alone for...well, 3 years at least (I only have a blurred memory of my father living with us when I was 5). She worked afternoon to night shift at JDS, and I practically raised myself in our apartment complex. What do those statistics predict as a future scenario for me?</p>
<p>I went to the same school system as those black kids I spoke of. It's not a bad school at all -- one of the best I've been to. People ruin their own lives.</p>