I HATE how Brown doesn't cater to US News Rankings

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
61

<p>posterX^^^^</p>

<p>you've made this point in several threads, and it does fly very far with me. first off, more students who are interested in professional schools (business, law, medicine) are attending HYP. and, traditionally, many of these students are coming from a legacy of privilege socially, economically, and educationally. there seems to be more folks attending brown and lacs who are entering more "social" fields, like education and teaching, nonprofits, social work, etc...,. these fields have just as much potential to "affect the world" as other professional careers do. philosophically, though, they are different and the rewards for engaging in them - particularly financially and prestige-wise - are also different. </p>

<p>secondly, this is again about perceived prestige, and not necessarily quality of education. professional schools are looking at the same "inputs" as many undergraduate schools are - gpa, test scores (especially law and medical scores...the lsat and mcat are bigtime factors in admission to these types of programs), not necessarily one's intellectual curiosity, creative and experiential intelligences, or ability to interact with other human beings. you continue to make "correlations" that aren't necessarily based on quality of education, but rather perceptions of prestige.</p>

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<p>Adofficer took the post right out of my hands.</p>

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<p>can we kill this thread here?</p>

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<p>It's not just about professional schools. Yale typically has by far the highest percentage of students who do Teach for America, of any university, as well.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
the best of the best students - who overwhelmingly choose H/Y/MIT/Caltech/Amherst/Williams/Swarthmore

[/quote]

Looking at admissions yields and revealed preferences, this is simply not true. HY do very well, MIT not quite as high, but clearly a top choice. Caltech, and AWS are much lower on the pecking order. The best of the best do not rank their choices in the order you have stated, and there are quite a few colleges higher on the preference list than caws.</p>

<p>The big problem with usnews, setting aside all the sloppy methods, is the notion that one can reduce the totality of a college experience to one number, then rank all colleges on this single number. The approach assumes that the ranking method will generate a rating that is an accurate reflection of college value for every student, which is obviously absurd.</p>

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<p>Give it up afan-- posterx has either never taking a course that goes over the problems with statistical analysis and surveys as incomplete sources from which it is easy to miss a large part of the story or even determine something very wrong is true (not that you need to take a course on that, but sit in on any psychology, anthropology, or sociology course and tell me they don't at least touch upon this), nor has he/she ever seen the merits of other methods that can describe much more and seems much more appropriate for this kind of research.</p>

<p>Essentially, posterX is a numbers whore who will not back down from that. He/she will say the survey is "flawed" but produces the correct result because that's the result that's expected and the result that is desired.</p>

<p>But the point of this thread is not to put down the USNews survey. It's to commend Brown for not falling to some of the obvious, easy manipulators that schools like WashU used to rise from the 40s to the 10s in USNews despite watching itself crawl slowly down the list. Well, for some, it's to lament that fact, but from me, it's a commendation.</p>

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<p>The bottom line in this debate is that Brown is a much more desirable and better school than many that are ranked above it in the US News Rankings. </p>

<p>It is ranked 7th in the country, right behind HYPSM and Caltech, in terms of attracting top students who have the choice to attend all of the top schools in the country. When the ranking is for kids interested in social science and humanities, it's 5th and MIT and Caltech are out of the picture. (wikipedia)</p>

<p>That's why nearly 80% of cross admits between Duke and Brown choose Brown. Over 60% between Dartmouth and Brown choose Brown. 55% or something like that choose Brown over Columbia. 65% choose Brown between Brown and Penn. And the percentage between Brown and Cornell also heavily favors Brown.</p>

<p>Prestige definitely ought to be a factor in choosing a college when a student is looking to attend good universities. It has many tangible benefits-- we live in the world and in society, not in a vacuum.</p>

<p>Brown is very, very prestigious to anyone who matters and even many who don't-- the revealed preference rankings prove that. It's not a Yale or Harvard, but its reputation is rock solid. The Revealed Preference Rankings show where the top students go, and that's probably the most significant metric since top employers, top grad schools, and top destinations after college look for the best students.</p>

<p>What is even sweeter about Brown is the strength of its undergraduate program. The US news ranking of schools with the best focus on undergraduates did put Brown extremely high. When you ask people in academia where the best focus on undergrads is, are they going to lie about it? Will they assume that it means that the school needs to be crappy in everything else but just have a focus on undergraduates? I think any sensible person would know the answer to this. Hint: it starts with an "n" and ends with an "o."</p>

<p>Finally, Brown is a place that is known for the persistence, creativity, collaborativeness, and self-directed nature of its students. As such, Brown students do well in whatever they want to do.</p>

<p>92-95% of brown grads get into a top 3 choice law school </p>

<p>nearly 100% of brown grads get into a top 3 choice business school </p>

<p>A disproportionate number of Brown grads do work that isn't one of those two coveted tracks, and that's what makes Brown so cool. It's a vibrant place where you get really different perspectives; however, everyone has a strong respect for others because all of us are smart and all of us are shaping our educations together. </p>

<p>If you look at people who want to go down a certain career or life path, and look at their satisfaction/success rate, Brown is a very enviable place to be.</p>

<p>Fullbright scholarships are an interesting statistic because Brown has the highest acceptance rate in the country. When statistics actually account for the level of interest among Brown students and the resulting success rate, things will be heavily in favor of Brown. Brown students have such diverse interests that typical rankings that just measure the "feederness" of Brown in terms of absolute numbers will not be the reality, although Brown still does quite well in these rankings.</p>

<p>That is all. </p>

<p>Have a nice day.</p>

<p>And never talk about Brown's place on the US News Ranking. Unless you're making a joke about it.</p>

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<p>Amen! Great post maritimemonster!</p>

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<p>Lol, agreed. :)</p>

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<p>Obviously, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford will be top priorities for most of the top students in America. That's a given.</p>

<p>Below them, there are schools like Columbia, Brown, and Amherst. But comparisons across these schools are hard to make because unlike HYPS, each of those schools have distinct personalities. Columbia is tough and urban, Brown is laid-back yet prestigious, and Amherst is small and intense.</p>

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<p>Very true. </p>

<p>I think what I liked best about Brown was its "personality" as you put it. HYPS all seemed rather cold and pre-professional, rather than vibrant and intellectual. Obviously, those schools have super intelligent students and they are the most attractive in terms of prestige, but they lack a certain warmth and character that I think Brown provides. My perception anyway.</p>

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<p>It's fine to have vague perceptions, but don't let stereotypes cloud your potential choices - in most cases, from my experience having spent extensive time at all these universities, many of the typical college stereotypes are totally wrong, while others are even more accurate than a first glance might indicate. Visit each school for 2-3 days, including a weekday and weekend, sit in on a half dozen classes, talk to as many students and professors as possible. Otherwise, you're basically making a huge decision based on potentially incorrect information.</p>

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<p>^^^^^^^
very true, but most people on cc continually make sweeping generalizations about institutions they do not attend or have only spent 2-3 days at while visiting, in addition to putting other institutions on particularly high pedestals...</p>

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<p>^^^^
Also quite true. And it's worth noting that these vague perceptions and stereotypes posterX refers to are just about all the USNews is worth, interestingly enough, and gives quite a bit of misunderstood, underevaluated, and overall, unimportant information to people who otherwise don't have a sense of a place.</p>

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<p>regarding post #73 - just what I was thinking</p>

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<p>fyi...i'm a brown student</p>

<p>what i describe, about the diversity of interests among the student population and certain characteristics many brown students have, is wholly substantiated by my personal experience...i'm not saying that all brown students are creative, collaborative, or even self-driven; however, i think that most people i know at brown possess these qualities </p>

<p>other top schools like columbia, dartmouth, williams, amherst etc are very similar to brown in terms of educational quality and in terms of opportunities while at school and after graduation</p>

<p>i'm NOT TRYING to initiate a ****ing contest between schools that are all solidly within the top tier. </p>

<p>i just was infuriated by the first post of this thread and the sometimes exclusive focus on us news rankings. there are many other measures to use as deciding factors in choosing a college. some of them are in my post. </p>

<p>i also agree that prospective students should talk to as many current students as possible, and i definitely think that they should spend time at each campus.</p>

<p>and another thing, kind of addressing SMV's post about brown having more personality than HYPS. That's something I highly doubt, given my experience keeping in touch with high school friends at every single ivy league school, georgetown, duke, and stanford. each place seems to have a cool personality, and i highly doubt that most people would be unhappy at any of the top tier schools. every single friend i've had at every single school is enjoying him or herself.</p>

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<p>I did not mean to assert that HYPSetc lack personality, but simply that they in general seem more preprofessionally geared as compared to Brown, which seems more exploratory and personal development oriented. Obviously the latter appeals more to me. Please do correct me if I'm wrong in this conclusion. </p>

<p>I'm sure that HYPS all do have their own unique personalities that I'm not particularly informed about having only visited H and S for a few days each. And I agree with maritime that the people who attend those schools love it there and wouldn't be happier anywhere else. But in the end, it seems to me that the best way to make a decision among the top tier schools (apart from the obvious criteria: academic programs, finances etc.) is the feeling a school gives you, and an understanding of what the school believes in and promotes.</p>

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<p>I'd prefer the Revealed Preferences Ranking or a tier-ed one based on individual departments.</p>

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<p>I think you're wrong in that conclusion, smv. I'd actually argue the opposite.</p>

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<p>Which conclusion by smv is wrong, posterx?</p>