I have a list of sorts. Can someone point me in the right direction?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I have a peculiar situation. I'm sure that I want to study music in college, but not exclusively. Ideally I'll double up with either political science or international relations (my plan is to join the Peace Corps after I get my undergrad and decide what to do with the rest of my life then). This means that every music school on my list is either a LAC with a double-degree program or a conservatory that has a similar arrangement with a college or university. This is it alphabetically:</p>

<p>Boston University
Eastman (with University of Rochester)
James Madison University
New England Conservatory (with Tufts University)
Oberlin College and Conservatory
St. Olaf College</p>

<p>I've gleaned everything I possibly can from the internet and the books in my counselor's office, and so far I've only visited the last two (both of which I really liked).</p>

<p>Can anyone give me more specific information on any of these with regards to:
1.) The overall quality of the program, specifically with regards to vocal music.
2.) The amount of resources available to undergraduates interested in conducting (I'm a singer by profession, but this is my real career interest).
3.) The smoothness of the double-degree program.
4.) Anything else interesting or that I should know.</p>

<p>Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.</p>

2

<p>Welcome.</p>

<p>There are a number of current posters with direct experience in most of those programs (with the possible exception of James Madison).</p>

<p>Some suggestions: use the "search this forum function" for double degree or double major... you'll find a number of previous discussions on the topic. You can also try school specific searches. Also, go through the "Suggestions of Colleges with a Music Major" thread pinned to the top here. Most of the schools, and many others are mentioned within.</p>

<p>The Oberlin program is probably the most seamless from discussions here; Tufts/NEC can be very selective (but far less so than the Columbia/Juilliard program... single digits there). Eastman/Rochester tends to have issues because of travel between campuses, as does the Tufts/NEC program.</p>

<p>In terms of conducting, are you interested in choral or orchestral?</p>

<p>The post by BassDad "So you want to be a Music Major" under "Featured Discussions" is a must read.</p>

<p>Great user name. May we call you Mel?</p>

3

<p>You know you have to apply and be accepted to both the NEC and Tufts separately, right? Just FYI. </p>

<p>The travel between campuses is overstated by the above poster. Tufts is 8 min. outside Boston with tons of public transportation to take you downtown (bus, subway, you can bike on a beautiful bikeway, too!). Plus, Tufts has a bus that goes between the NEC and the Tufts campus several times a day, at times convenient for each class period. Don't consider it too much of a factor. ;)</p>

4

<p>Maybe this helps?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.oberlin.edu/alummag/fall2006/double-duty-degree.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.oberlin.edu/alummag/fall2006/double-duty-degree.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

5

<p>This year there were about 38 double degree students in the first year class at Oberlin; the year before, there were 40. The double degree students have advisors in the conservatory (their principal teacher) and in the college and also have extra advising, peer and otherwise, for double degree students. So in terms of peer support and faculty support, it is pretty seamless indeed. The conservatory's location and the large number of practice rooms also makes it easy to practice and study efficiently. They appear to have a very strong vocal program. They also have an early review option which is nonbinding; you have to apply by November 1 and, if you pass the screening, audition at the beginning of December; they will tell you whether you are accepted, denied, or deferred by the end of the month.</p>

6

<p>Look into CCM: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music. It is one of the best of its kind and certainly as good, if not better, than most of the schools that you mentioned. They also allow for you to take courses outside of CCM since they are part of University of Cincinnati. They also have a superb marching band. Check them out.</p>

7

<p>To some extent, it depends on what you want to do with vocal music. At St. Olaf, the choral program is among the finest anywhere and many of their voice majors compete for spots in the top choir which travels extensively. Some of the other schools are more focused on developing soloists in the operatic mold, with voice teachers who do not allow their students to sing in choirs beyond the basic year or two of ensemble requirements. Which is more important to you?</p>

<p>To stress what others have mentioned, you want to get some information on how many students are accepted into double degree programs and how many of them actually complete both majors within five or six years at each of the schools that interest you. Some schools have double degree or double major programs that exist in theory but either admit only a handful of students each year or make it very hard for one reason or another to actually complete both sets of degree requirements. Even at programs with reasonable numbers admitted and high levels of support, many students eventually drop one major to concentrate on the other. Call the admissions office and get some real numbers for each school, then ask yourself whether or not you have what it takes to beat the odds.</p>

<p>Another consideration is the relationship between grad students and undergrad students at each school. Some schools are undergrad only, with the attendant benefits and drawbacks. Others heavily favor their grad programs over their undergrad programs. Do you learn better when you are the prized student who is getting the most attention and landing the plum roles from the very beginning, or when you have competition that sets a standard to which you can aspire a year or two down the road?</p>

<p>Good luck in your search.</p>

8

<p>Thank you all very much. This is immensely helpful, as were BassDad's thread and the search function. Some additional queries/info:</p>

<p>To enroll in the Tufts/NEC program must one simply be accepted to both, or is it a separate entity with its own requirements?</p>

<p>Also, what is the usual education/career path for the aspiring conductor? I'd been set on vocal performance until relatively recently (several months ago) and I don't know how this affects my planning. Will I learn the necessary undergraduate-level skills if I stay in performance or do I major in music education?</p>

<p>I don't know whether I want to do choral or orchestral. I have more firsthand experience with the first, but the second has Brahms's Symphony No. 4, so it's a tie as of now.</p>

<p>When I visited St. Olaf I fell in love with the atmosphere; will going there kill my choices for a solo career? I love choir singing (early music in particular), and was not previously aware that excellence did not imply excellence in the other.</p>

<p>In case this helps, I was and am still interested in opera. However, after much rational thinking I've discovered that my voice is lighter than what opera companies look for (very lyric - I'm not a Heldentenor by any stretch of the imagination). While this is wonderful for my Lieder, it's something of a hindrance with my arias. Granted, this might be because I'm still young, so I'm trying to keep my options open. </p>

<p>When I visited St. Olaf I fell in love with the atmosphere; would going there kill my choices for a solo career? I love choir singing (early music in particular), and was not previously aware that excellence in one area did not imply excellence in the other.</p>

<p>Thank you all so much. I know I'm asking for a lot.</p>

<p>Oh, and you may call me Mel if you're so inclined. My username is from my AIM screenname, which was a combination of my heritage and my disposition at the time it was created (no longer as accurate). :]</p>

9

<p>I suggest you call NEC directly to ask about their program with Tufts. I think there is more to it than simply applying to both without letting either know about the other, but the current authoritative answer will come directly from the schools.</p>

<p>Conductors get their jobs through many different paths. Concerning choral vs. orchestral conducting, the skill sets involved overlap quite a bit but there are areas that are specific to one or the other. Sometimes really good choral directors make mediocre orchestral conductors and vice versa, but very talented and dedicated people can be good at both. </p>

<p>The skills needed for being a good soloist will not necessarily make you a good chorister. I have heard far too many choirs that sound like a collection of 50 voice majors competing with one another rather than a single ensemble cooperating to make a unified sound. It is certainly possible for the same singer to do both things well, but there are skills and techniques that are unique to each. If you want to try to do both, you need to find a sympathetic voice teacher because many teachers who train soloists do not want them singing in choruses. Early music is a particularly tough case because of the wide range of styles, times and techniques involved. You may need to sing quietly and without any vibrato for 20 minutes straight when performing a renaissance missa brevis. You may need to produce a very bright, raucous and nasal sound within a fairly limited range when doing medieval songs. This kind of singing may not sit well with a teacher who is trying to get a more operatic sound out of you.</p>

<p>Attending St. Olaf will not mean that you have no shot at a solo career. I am sure that their admissions office can name several alumni who have gone on to successful careers. However, you will likely find that different schools have different strengths and weaknesses. It sounds to me like you want a school that is good in a number of different areas and you need to determine which of those areas are most important to you before you will be able to pick the schools that are best for you.</p>

<p>A music ed curriculum will normally include a semester or two worth of conducting class. Some performance programs require a conducting class as well, others do not. Many music schools have at least some conducting classes available for those who want to take them as electives. If you want to learn to conduct, look for a school with great conductors and excellent ensembles that will present you with practical opportunities as a conducting student. St. Olaf happens to have one of my favorite choral conductors in Anton Armstrong and a couple of great choirs. I do not know as much about their orchestral program, but it did not seem to be on the list of any of the top students that my daughter met when she was auditioning for various conservatories a couple of years back. I know they get some very good instrumentalists, but perhaps they do not draw that many from the east coast.</p>

<p>It is impossible for anyone who has not heard you and worked with you to say what your voice will be like in ten or twenty years. That will probably be hard enough to predict for a teacher who has worked with you for several years. Keeping your options open is a very good plan at your age, as is looking for a voice teacher who will not push you into roles that are too heavy for your voice at this stage of your vocal development. You will eventually find that you have some choices to make, but those are likely a few years in your future.</p>

10

<p>Mel- Your name invoked an image of Hamlet; I've always been a strong fan of the Bard.</p>

<p>BassDad continually amazes with his broad knowledge, clear presentation, and thoughtful insights. You've gotten some excellent advice there.</p>

<p>You wrote: <also, what="" is="" the="" usual="" education="" career="" path="" for="" aspiring="" conductor?="" i'd="" been="" set="" on="" vocal="" performance="" until="" relatively="" recently="" (several="" months="" ago)="" and="" i="" don't="" know="" how="" this="" affects="" my="" planning.="" will="" learn="" necessary="" undergraduate-level="" skills="" if="" stay="" in="" or="" do="" major="" music="" education?=""></also,></p>

<p>I quickly looked at about 6 conservatory undergrad programs, and none offer conducting as an undergrad degree which was my assumption. In all cases it was a Masters/Doctoral level pursuit. I'd suggest looking at specific requirements for a few top schools with grad offerings and identifying what admission criteria for the discipline requires.</p>

<p>The basic undergrad courses in conducting are not linked specifically to the music ed curriculum. They are usually requirements for both performance and ed majors. As a music ed major, you'd get some practical hands on experience (depending on the school or program), but you will also receive a broad basic exposure to all orchestral instruments, some general education courses, general and educational psychology, and field work student teaching. This does not appear to be the program you want based on your postings.</p>

<p>I would suggest concentrating on taking the lower level conducting classes, as well as the fullest compliment of music theory/analysis and music history, and composition courses available that you can. Specific topical seminars, and lower level grad courses can also factored in as appropriate. </p>

<p>It may be that there is a "conducting path" course outline already in place at most institutions. I'd ask specifically and fine tune it as your needs require.</p>

11

<p>You've gotten some great advice here. I would suggest also considering U Wisconsin-Madison and U Michigan. Madison is very strong in music all around, as is Michigan, which also has excellent early music. Both have excellent voice and conducting programs.</p>

<p>Boston is just about the very best city for early music, so consider adding another Boston school. Brandeis comes to mind, excellent department. Vassar is another place you should look into, as they have several early music specialists on the faculty, including one in voice/choral conducting. UNC-Chapel Hill offers a BM in music performance, first-rate voice teaching, undergraduate conducting courses, and liberal arts education, and encourages double-degrees.</p>

<p>I'm sending you a PM with a few more details.</p>

12

<p>At Michigan, both Music School and the University are very supportive ( and even encouraging) of double degree/major. There were students successfully finished engineering and music performance double degree programs. D is pursuing double major in music. She mentioned that many jazz majors also double in classical. Her friend from youth orchestra is doing performance and math. He even received scholarships from both Music school and LS&A.</p>

13

<p>Just want to add that the 5 college consortium that includes UMass Amherst, Amherst College, Hampshire, etc. has an Early Music program that sounds pretty substantial. And this is a wonderful group of schools, and great college town to consider.</p>

14

<p>I teach in the Theatre dept. at James Madison University. Musical Theatre is my specialty, so I have a lot of interaction with the School of Music. The programs are VERY strong. The challenge to double majoring in Vocal performance and Political Science/ International Affairs is that you would actually have to double degree. All of the degrees in the School of Music are BM degrees. The Political Science degree is a BA. So to complete both of these programs you would have to complete the common (this is required for ALL JMU students regardless of degree program) 41 credit general education core, plus the 27 credit BM music core, plus the 0 - 14 credit BA foreign language requirement (credit variation depends on at what level you test), plus the 3 credit additional Philosophy requirement for the BA. Assuming you enter school without any AP, IB, or college credits, and do not test out of any requirement levels for courses -- that is a total of 85 credits already. In addition you would need to complete the credit requirements for each major concentration (33 for Political Science, and 59 for Vocal Performance). This is a total of 177 credits to graduate with the two degrees. Now, if you were to enter with some credits already taken care of, or able to test out of some beginning levels of music courses, general education courses, and some foreign language this would reduce the number of credits, but I believe to graduate with two bachelor degrees you still need to complete 155 credits (instead of the "normal" 120 - 127 to complete one bachelor degree).</p>

<p>I do not want to be discouraging -- you should contact the departments directly (particularly the school of music) to get a sense of how doable they think the double degree may be, and how long it would take to graduate with both degrees. There may be some condensed options available to make the number of credits more manageable. I do not know I have pasted links to the JMU catalog pages for Music and political science below. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.jmu.edu/catalog/07/programs/units/polisci.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jmu.edu/catalog/07/programs/units/polisci.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p><a href="http://www.jmu.edu/catalog/07/programs/units/music.html#scholarships%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jmu.edu/catalog/07/programs/units/music.html#scholarships&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As far as conducting opportunities... for vocal performance two conducting classes are required. There is an active student theatre group that produces musicals and has student conductors, there are also a number of student singing groups that have student conductors. Students also can talk with conducting faculty about assisting. There may also be additional opportunities for non-conducting track students. </p>

<p>You may also want to explore the idea of one major plus a minor in the other area. At JMU I believe this would be more satisfying if you majored in music and minored in Political Science, but again, you should contact these departments directly for guidance. </p>

<p>You may also want to look at schools that have very good BA programs in music.... Yale and Williams both come to mind (I say these without knowing your academic stats).</p>

<p>Best of luck!</p>

15

<p>Not to put words in KatMT's mouth, that equates to 10 semesters at 18 credits a semester for the full load.</p>

<p>One other concept for double major students to be aware of is overload fees. This is the maximum credit load per semester allowed before additional fees kick in, so it's a cost to be considered.</p>

<p>Overload fees, if any, are school specific and are sometimes waived in certain majors or degree combos.</p>

<p>My comment is NOT a reflection on JMU, but a perfect post to mention the
overload potential because of the nature and topic of the post.</p>

<p>Just some more food for thought in considering 2 disciplines.</p>

16

<p>There is certainly overload potential if you go to a school that has the two majors you would like to pursue in two different degree programs (ie. BA/ BFA... BM/ BA... BS/BA...) There may be schools that handle this differently, and I do not advise in the BM program... so there may be some way to do this at JMU that is a little less crazy making... Again -- I encourage MelancholyDane to contact the departments to directly to confirm that there is not a way to do this double degree in fewer the 177 credits, there may well be, but you want to make sure you know what you are getting yourself into ahead of time. </p>

<p>I do advise my advisees in the BA Musical Theatre program that if they want to double major they are encouraged to do so, but that they should look for a second major in the same degree program (ex. BA in Musical Theatre and BA in Math [rather than BS in Math]... don't laugh, I actually do have a few doing that particular double major :))</p>

<p>violadad is right, the overload potential is tremendous in completing a double degree. Particularly if one of the degrees is a performance degree. These already tend to be credit intensive (not to mention the involvement in ensembles, junior and senior recitals, shows, etc...)</p>

17

<p>I'm a conducting/composition student at NEC, so I'll briefly share my thoughts on both the Tufts program and the conducting opportunities for undergrads.
First the conducting opportunities. I'm in my senior year at NEC, and in the past four years my focus has really shifted from composition to conducting (to the extent that I hardly do any composing these days). NEC is a good place for undergrads who are interested in conducting. The graduate conducting programs in choral and wind conducting (no orchestral degree at the moment) are very small - usually two people in each degree program. That means that there are lot of opportunities for other conductors. There are basic wind and choral conducting classes offered and there are advanced seminars that are primarily designed for the graduate students but allow qualified undergrads. In addition to the course offerings, there are many opportunities for student conductors, particularly in the realm of new music. I have also been lucky in my time at NEC to work with the NEC Prep School's Youth Chorale as their assistant conductor.
Boston itself has also been very good to me - it's one of those times on the musical scene when many of the older musicians are beginning to retire and big jobs are opening up with local groups. There are also several new music and opera ensembles being formed, many of which I am fortunate enough to have associacions with.
All that said, NEC has recently hired a new President, and one of his goals is to create an orchestral conducting degree and improve the existing wind and choral programs. This is good for the school, but may not be good for future students like me. As the school's grad programs improve there will likely be fewer opportunities for undergrads.
As for the Tufts program, I wouldn't recommend it if you have ambitions of studying conducting while at NEC. The students who are in the Tufts program don't end up getting the full NEC or Tufts experiences. Also, whoever said that Tufts is 8 minutes outside Boston has clearly never driven from NEC to Tufts. The bus between the campuses takes 20 minutes on a good day.
I don't know how feasible this is, but you might consider Harvard as an option. Harvard has some excellent musical opportunities (especially in the area of early music), and has produced some very fine conductors.</p>

<p>Hope this all helped. Let me know if you have any more questions or want more specifics.</p>

18

<p>Oberlin's double degree program is possible in ten semesters and some even complete it in nine. The entire program requires as few as 152 credit hours, with a minimum of 76 in the conservatory, a minimum of 62 in the college and the other 14 in either school. </p>

<p>The hours in the college must include all non-music major requirements (typically 30-36 credit hours), distribution requirements (nine hours each in humanities, social sciences and natural sciences), nine hours of cultural diversity courses, six hours of courses in which you demonstrate writing proficiency and three to six hours of courses in which you demonstrate mathematical proficiency. Many available courses can satisfy more than one of these requirements at a time. For example POLT 224 (Topics in Contemporary African Affairs) gets you three hours of social science, three hours of cultural diversity, three of writing proficiency and three hours of the major requirements in either Politics or International Studies.</p>

<p>The double degree program is by no means easy, but there is broad institutional support for it and a reasonable number of students actually complete it there. Some of the voice teachers reportedly pressure their students to drop their other majors to concentrate on music full time. If contemplating a double degree in vocal performance and some other major at Oberlin, it would be wise to try to get the inside scoop before scheduling sample lessons.</p>

<p>Oberlin has a very active early music program, with both undergrads and some of the very few grad students on campus involved. There are several levels of conducting classes available. They have programs in Politics and in International Studies. The one drawback for the OP is that the voice program is almost exclusively Opera-based. Still, there is a Collegium of thirty to forty voices that performs the early music vocal repertoire, so there may be at least one voice teacher there who is open to allowing their students to explore other vocal techniques. If I were in the OP's shoes, I would contact the director of that Collegium (<a href="mailto:steven.plank@oberlin.edu">steven.plank@oberlin.edu</a> - one of the musicology teachers) to get his perspective on whether it is possible to perform early music there as a voice major in the double degree program.</p>

19

<p>BassDad thank you for the specifics of Oberlin's double degree program. It is very interesting to hear how other schools handle the double degree. Oberlin is an amazing school. I have been fortunate to work with a few Oberlin graduates. It is a very special place.</p>

20

<p>BassDad - As usual, your posts are very helpful. Are you familiar with the "college music program" @ Oberlin? I was a little confused by their website. It was listed under the Arts & Sciences, not the conservatory. Is it separate from the conservatory, or is another name for their liberal arts music program? Is there a lower standard for the audition for the "college music program"? Any info you can offer would be greatly appreciated - my S is in the same boat as the OP, but looking at different schools. He is very insistent that he wants to continue w/ music in college, but he knows his performance abilities are not up to conservatory standards.</p>