I hope the Army doesn't use this...

<p>The Marine Corps has spent 20 years developing the Osprey, this helicopter that transforms into an airplane. Pretty cool... except it's killed dozens of people during test flights! It's supposed to be able to land like a heli and then speed away like a plain, except it has to land excruciatingly slowly or else it gets caught in its own turbulence and crashes! It's a piece of crap for a dozen other reason, but it's gonna be put in the field in a few months. Talk about your military-industrial complex! A soldier costs $100k a year, and each of these things costs $80 million. Sorry for ranting, but this just boiled my cabbage a little</p>

<p>The Osprey was on the front of the Marine Times the other day and it reminded me of this NY Times article:</p>

<p>Combat, With Limits, Looms for Hybrid Aircraft</p>

<p>By LESLIE WAYNE
Published: April 14, 2007</p>

<p>The Marine Corps said yesterday that the V-22 Osprey, a hybrid aircraft with a troubled past, will be sent to Iraq this September, where it will see combat for the first time.</p>

<p>But because of a checkered safety record in test flights, the V-22 will be kept on a short leash.</p>

<p>The Pentagon has placed so many restrictions on how it can be used in combat that the plane -- which is able to drop troops into battle like a helicopter and then speed away from danger like an airplane -- could have difficulty fulfilling the Marines' longstanding mission for it.</p>

<p>In Iraq, the V-22 will begin to replace the Vietnam-era helicopters that are increasingly facing enemy fire. The limitations on the V-22, which cost $80 million apiece, mean it cannot evade enemy fire with the same maneuvers and sharp turns used by helicopter pilots.</p>

<p>As a result, the craft could be more vulnerable to attack, and may result in the Marines keeping it out of the thick of battle, using it instead for less dangerous tasks.</p>

<p>''They will plan their missions in Iraq to avoid it getting into areas where there are serious threats,'' said Thomas Christie, the Pentagon's director of operations, test and evaluation from 2001 to 2005, who is now retired. The V-22's debut in combatends a remarkable 25-year struggle for the Marines to build a craft they could call their own.</p>

<p>In announcing the Iraq deployment yesterday, Gen. James T. Conway, the Marine Corps' commandant, referred to those efforts as ''a road marked by some setbacks, lots of sacrifices and the success of these Marines standing before you.''</p>

<p>The V-22 has been the Marines' top priority -- the Pentagon has spent $20 billion so far and has budgeted $54.6 billion for it. The money has bought a craft that is half-helicopter, half-airplane and whose speed, say the Marines, will save lives.</p>

<p>But the V-22 has also suffered some of the deadliest test crashes in Marine history. It has claimed 30 lives, 26 of them marines, in three test flight crashes. A fourth V-22 crashed, but there were no deaths then. Many more have been damaged in lesser incidents involving fires, stalled engines and software glitches.</p>

<p>Critics say the V-22's unusual design can create deadly problems that the Marines have minimized in their single-minded pursuit of the craft.</p>

<p>''It's like a bad poker hand, and the Marines have been investing in it for 20 years,'' said Philip Coyle, the Pentagon's top weapons tester from 1994 to 2001. ''They might have been better if they invested in brand new helicopters.''</p>

<p>The plane's most widely cited design problem is that one of its propellers can get caught in its own turbulence as it comes in for a landing, and that can cause the V-22 to roll over and head into the ground.</p>

<p>For that reason, V-22 pilots are trained to steer clear of their own turbulence by rules prohibiting them from making the quick maneuvers used by helicopters to evade enemy fire. Instead, the V-22 must land at speeds as slow as nine miles an hour and in a fairly straight line.</p>

<p>A 2005 Pentagon report said these limitations ''may prove insufficient'' in protecting the V-22 from ground fire. As a result, that Pentagon evaluation said the V-22 was suited only for low- and medium-threat environments, and is not ''operationally effective'' in high-threat environments.</p>

<p>Some critics say that in the heat of battle, V-22 pilots could forget these restrictions and move in ways that could bring the craft down.</p>

<p>''The V-22 cannot do radical evasive maneuvers'' said Lee Gaillard, author of a report critical of the V-22, ''Wonder Weapon or Widow Maker'' for the Center for Defense Information, which studies weapons programs. ''But that's what it will need for combat.''</p>

<p>The Marines defend the V-22 by saying it provides a margin of safety a helicopter cannot because it can fly faster, farther and higher.</p>

<p>They say it can get to wounded troops quicker and speed them to medical care in what is called the ''golden hour'' when life can hang in the balance. Because the V-22 flies with a lower ''acoustical signature,'' it can enter a battlefield less noisily than a helicopter.</p>

<p>Officials add that the Osprey can do more evasive maneuvers than currently permitted -- and further testing will prove that.</p>

<p>''If flies twice as fast as the CH-46 that it is replacing,'' said Lt. Gen. John Castellaw, head of the Marine aviation program. ''It carries three times the payload; it goes five times as far; it's six times as survivable. So what you're deploying is an asset that increases the combat capability of the Marines.''</p>

<p>''That's what you want to do,'' added General Castellaw. ''Give them the best you can.''</p>

<p>Col. Mathew Mulhern, the Pentagon's V-22 program officer, whose Patuxent River office has an ''Osprey Country'' sign, says marines cannot wait to get on board.</p>

<p>''Every marine who sees one, when they do, a light bulb comes on,'' said Colonel Mulhern. ''They say, 'my God.' ''</p>

<p>Each V-22 costs about three times the price of a modern helicopter and nearly the same as a fighter jet. The Marines will get 360 Ospreys, Air Force Special Forces will get 50 and there will be 48 for the Navy.</p>

<p>The program's high cost and uncertain technology led Vice President Dick Cheney, when he was secretary of defense under President George H. W. Bush, to try four times to cancel the program.</p>

<p>But, from 1989 to 1992, Mr. Cheney was beaten back by Congress. Work on the project -- the Boeing Company and Bell Helicopter Textron are the main contractors -- is spread across 40 states and 2,000 subcontractors, giving the V-22 broad support. More than 100 members of Congress even formed a Tiltrotor Technology Coalition to protect it.</p>

<p>''We have proven conclusively that this is an extraordinarily fine craft,'' said Robert Leder, a spokesman for the Bell-Boeing V-22 program. ''It is a very safe craft and will be of tremendous service. ''</p>

<p>All new weapons have problems in testing. But critics say the V-22 is plagued with basic design problems.</p>

<p>Should the V-22 lose power, it can not ''autorotate'' like a helicopter and allow the updraft of air to rotate its propellers for a hard, but survivable, landing. Because of this, according to the 2005 Pentagon report, emergency V-22 landings without power at altitudes below 1,600 feet ''are not likely to be survivable.''</p>

<p>''If you lose power on a V-22, you just burn and crash,'' said one Pentagon official involved in testing the craft but who was not authorized to speak publicly. ''There is no way to survive. ''</p>

<p>The cabin is not pressurized, even though the craft can fly at altitudes of 10,000 feet and above, where breathing is difficult and it is not climate-controlled.</p>

<p>Pentagon reports also say the V-22 is too cramped for the 24 marines it can carry. The marines are so packed into the windowless cabin that they can become airsick, their legs can grow numb and leaving the plane quickly is difficult.</p>

<p>There is no bathroom on board and marines have criticized the ''piddle packs'' they are to use as insufficient. And, there is no place on board to store them once they are full.</p>

<p>V-22 downdraft is so strong, and moves in so many directions that it can create ''brownout'' conditions, making it difficult for pilots to see and potentially knocking down marines on the ground.</p>

<p>As a result, when rope ladders are used, the V-22 must hover at higher altitudes, making marines more vulnerable to fire.</p>

<p>''Safety is a big issue,'' wrote one V-22 crew chief, in a questionnaire filled out for the Pentagon's 2005 operational evaluation. ''If we had went down in the water we would have most likely lost at least 24 troops because of restricted egress. I felt like I was in a coffin.''</p>

<p>These are more than theoretical concerns. On April 8, 2000, 19 marines were killed in a training exercise when a V-22 descended too fast and crashed near Tucson. It was the third V-22 to crash -- seven people were killed in two previous crashes.</p>

<p>In December 2000, four more marines, including the program's most experienced pilot, were killed in a crash caused by a burst hydraulic line and software problems.</p>

<p>These accidents led to program delays to make design changes. But as tests resumed, so have the problems.</p>

<p>Three engine fires occurred recently because of problems related to hydraulic lines. In March 2006, a computer problem led an idling V-22 to suddenly take off on its own. It then slammed into the ground, breaking off its right wing. All 54 V-22's were grounded for weeks in February because of a faulty computer chip.</p>

<p>In preparation for deployment, the Pentagon ran tests last year in the New Mexico desert, similar to the climate of Iraq. In January, the Pentagon wrote about frequent failures with various parts and systems. The reason: ''Extended exposure to the desert operating environment.''</p>

<p>Because of these problems, Mr. Coyle, the former Pentagon weapons tester, predicted the Marines will use the V-22 to ferry troops from one relatively safe spot to another, like a flying truck.</p>

<p>''They don't want to have a 'Black Hawk down,' '' he said. ''That would kill the program. Of course, it was not designed to be a truck. It was designed to be used in combat.''</p>

<p>The Marines say the V-22 will prove the critics wrong.</p>

<p>''Ask all the naysayers how many hours they have flown,'' said Colonel Mulhern, the V-22 program manger.</p>

<p>''They are just sitting around a desk and crunching numbers,'' he added. ''Go talk to the Marines. The V-22 has come of age. The first marine it saves makes it worth what we paid for it. And I have real confidence that the V-22 will do it.''</p>

<p>Fans include General Castellaw, a Vietnam helicopter pilot, who has flown the V-22.</p>

<p>''I came in at a high altitude and then did a tactical ingress,'' said General Castellaw. ''Yankin' and bankin' to avoid simulated fire, came in low, streaked into the zone. The aircraft is nimble, agile. You can yank and bank with the best of them.</p>

<p>''I believe absolutely that this is the most survivable craft for the Marine Corps' most precious assets,'' he added. '' If I did not believe that, I would not deploy it. I have absolute faith in the craft to do the mission.''</p>

<p>To put into context:</p>

<ol>
<li> How many Blackhawks went down during test/procurement phase?</li>
<li> How slow are Chinook and Blackhawks in landing? Same as V 22?</li>
<li> How much does a Blackhawk cost?</li>
<li> How many Marines fit ina Blackhawk or Chinook?</li>
</ol>

<p>The first squadron of V-22 Ospreys will be deploy to Iraq this year.</p>

<p>1st Osprey squadron to deploy:
<a href="http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/04/marine_osprey_deploy070411/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/04/marine_osprey_deploy070411/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Osprey to make combat debut in Iraq:
<a href="http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/04/marine_osprey_iraq_070413/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/04/marine_osprey_iraq_070413/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Osprey ready for Iraq, officer tells lawmakers:
<a href="http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/04/marine_osprey_070424/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/04/marine_osprey_070424/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Its design flaws are a thing of the past, supposedly.</p>

<p>Obviously biased article, written by someone who hasn't a clue about what they are talking about. Bathrooms on a helo?? Cramped area for 24 marines?? Of course its going to be cramped as its rated for a maximum of 24 marines in full combat gear, not 24 people out for a liesurely flight.</p>

<p>These things happen when you are dancing on the bleeding edge of technology.</p>

<p>There was a time when helicopters were considered deathtraps. The B-26 Marauder, one of the most devastating and beloved medium bombers of WWII, was nicknamed "The Widowmaker" during test flights and early use. The Harrier was considered impossible to fly at one point.</p>

<p>The Osprey is a brilliant concept that may very well be far ahead of its time, but this nation didn't rise to the top of the technological heap by refusing to push the envelope and take chances. The desert around Edwards AFB is strewn with the wreckage (and body parts) of failed efforts that led to extraordinary advances. </p>

<p>Here's something to ponder: Edwards AFB was originally known as the Muroc Army Air Field. The base was renamed on December 8, 1949 in memory of test pilot Glen Edwards, who died while testing the Northrop YB-49 Flying Wing. The Flying Wing was panned by some as too dangerous to develop.</p>

<p>Seen any flying wings in action, lately? Here's a hint: Google "Stealth Bomber". ;)</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>It is called settling with power (vortex ring state) and is common to every helicopter that has ever been manufactured. Heavy, hot (or high altitude), steep, and slow; it is almost certain to happen which was exactly where the V-22 with the load of Marines happened to be. You would probably be surprised at the number of Chinook Army deaths in either the mountains of Afghanastan or the heat of Iraq attributable to this aerodynamic reality. </p>

<p>I also hope the Army doesn't get the Osprey. That will leave all the edge-of-the-envelope missions and the appropriation dollars associated with them, to the SEALs and the Recon Marines.</p>

<p>Like Zap stated, all new technology has a learning curve.</p>

<p>All good points! I guess just I don't think that the military should focus its resources on "dancing on the bleeding edge of technology" (until WWIII vs China of course :)) </p>

<p>USNA69: I actually am suprised at how many helicopter crashes there are in Afghanistan
Zaphod: I don't think I have seen any flying wings in action lately. Which bad guys (Iran, I guess?) have radar for us to hide from?</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Yep, today, halfway through my 1st block US History class, when I realized that the Cold War, which I had lived through in its entirety, was as ancient of history as WWI to my students, caused me suddenly to feel like a very old man.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess just I don't think that the military should focus its resources on "dancing on the bleeding edge of technology" (until WWIII vs China of course )

[/quote]
</p>

<p>By then it will be too late. You have to invest and risk NOW in order to have the benefits when you need them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't think I have seen any flying wings in action lately. Which bad guys (Iran, I guess?) have radar for us to hide from?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>All of them do.</p>

<p>Also, the B-2 was used in Iraq and Afghanistan. Probably still are, albeit at a lesser rate than during the height of the air wars.</p>

<p>I hear they might try for a limited test run first, by using it to bring all the class of 2011 beast ruck march fall-outs to the hospital during that first 3-miler this summer.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/07/airforce_osprey_seals_070709n/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/07/airforce_osprey_seals_070709n/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
The 8th Special Operations Squadron from Hurlburt Field, Fla., completed a mission with Navy SEALs on June 27 and 28 to verify and prove the tactics, techniques and procedures of the CV-22 Osprey during water operations, the 1st Special Operations Wing announced Friday.</p>

<p>The exercise took place at Lake Jackson in Florala, Ala.</p>

<p>It was part of an ongoing process of verifying the tactics, techniques and procedures for operating the tilt-rotor Osprey, according to a press release....

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/08/marine_osprey_wasp_070808/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/08/marine_osprey_wasp_070808/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
The MV-22 squadron heading out for the Osprey’s first combat deployment next month will get to Iraq the old-fashioned way — the Navy.</p>

<p>Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 263 will sail aboard the amphibious assault ship Wasp, a II Marine Expeditionary Force spokesman confirmed Wednesday....

[/quote]
</p>