I turned down Harvard, Princeton and Stanford for Berkeley's Physics programme

<p>Here are the most popular in Asia: This is NOT perfect but this is the general perception:</p>

<p>OVERALL: (undergrad/grad/whatever coz we don't see it that way)
1 - Harvard/Berkeley
2 - MIT/Stanford/UCLA
3 - Cornell/Yale/Michigan</p>

<p>Law:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale/Michigan/Berkeley</p>

<p>MBA:
1. Harvard
2 - Stanford/Wharton/Berkeley-Haas/Columbia/NYU/UCLA/Northwestern/Chicago/Virginia</p>

<p>Medicine:
1. Harvard
2. Johns Hopkins</p>

<p>Engineering:
1. MIT/Berkeley
2. Stanford/Carnegie/Texas/Michigan
3. Cornell/Purdue/Illinois</p>

<p>Does it appear weird you? I don't know. you decide.</p>

<p>You asked for our opinions, and we answered honestly. Believe whatever you want to believe. You've made the decision, and it's too late to change it, so once you enter Cal, make the most out of it.</p>

<p>In regards to class sizes, yes there are some huge ones at Berkeley, but you get that everywhere. At Berkeley, 74% of the classes are under 30 students. In comparison... at Stanford, 79% of the classes are under 30 students. The difference isn't as drastic as many seem to believe. Here is a list of a bunch of the top undergrad schools compared to Berkeley...</p>

<p>Percent of Classes under 30 Students</p>

<p>Princeton - 82%
Berkeley - 74%
Cornell - 63%
Dartmouth - 75%
Yale - 86%
Stanford - 79%
MIT - 74%
Middlebury - 85%</p>

<p>Percent of Classes under 10 students</p>

<p>Princeton - 30%
Berkeley - 30%
Cornell - 18%
Dartmouth - 17%
Yale - 27%
Stanford - 33%
MIT - 32%
Middlebury - 25%</p>

<p>
[quote]
For the same reason that Harvard undergraduates disproportionally choose Berkeley as their choice for grad school. (In spite of the fact that Harvard offers more money.) As a whole, Berkeley's faculty is BETTER and SMARTER than Harvard's faculty. (Even more so in specialized subjects.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would like to understand the basis for this statement.</p>

<p>It seems to me that Harvard has far more Nobel Prize winners on its faculty than Berkeley does. Furthermore, according to USNews, Berkeley's physics department is tied with Harvard's.</p>

<p>
[quote]
1. Berkeley's Physics programme is world-class and better than Harvard/Princeton/Stanford's.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Says who? </p>

<p>According to the USNews graduate physics departmental rankings:</p>

<ol>
<li> Massachusetts Institute of Technology 5.0
Stanford University (CA) 5.0 </li>
<li> California Institute of Technology 4.9 </li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.8
Princeton University (NJ) 4.8
University of California–Berkeley 4.8 </li>
</ol>

<p>I don't see any basis for saying that Berkeley is better than Stanford/Harvard/Princeton at physics.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It really depends. Speaking as an Asian (Chinese,) I can tell you that in my experience, Asians from my California community and back in China regard Berkeley as the best university in the world. The (irrational) rationale is that since many Asians go to Berkeley, it must be a good school for Asians to attend. In contrast, Harvard in "too American." MIT and Stanford are high on the desirable list too-but not as high as Berkeley. Once again, this is one Asian's experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, let me just say that I know PLENTY of Chinese-Americans who are absolutely filled with Harvard fever. Heck, many of them even went to Berkeley. For example, I know one Chinese guy who graduated from Berkeley who was arguably one of the biggest Berkeley fanatics that I have ever known, always talking about how great Berkeley was, etc. etc. But then he got admitted to Harvard Business School, and he didn't think twice about taking it. He certainly didn't think twice about turning down Haas for Harvard.</p>

<p>Truth be told, almost all Chinese-Americans that I know are EXTREMELY status and prestige-conscious. In fact, that's why a lot of Chinese-Americans chose Berkeley. They couldn't get into the top private schools, so they went to Berkeley simply because it was the most prestigious school they could get into. I don't see how somebody choosing Harvard just for the prestige is any different than somebody choosing Berkeley just for the prestige.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Quote:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ti...tion_Supplement%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ti...tion_Supplement&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Indeed, the argument may be made that since Berkeley's engineering programs are to God what Harvard's engineering programs are to excrement, and the humanities/social and hard and life sciences of both universities are of relatively equal strenght, Berkeley is, overall, the academically better university (as exemplified by the peer review rankings.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't understand why you are referencing the THES supplement to bolster your case that Berkeley is the academically better university. I believe the supplement clearly shows that Harvard is ranked higher than Berkeley.</p>

<p><a href="I%20don't%20think%20Harvard%20or%20Princeton%20has%20a%20really%20good%20physics%20program%20though,%20so%20i%20won't%20compare%20them.">quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look at the rankings. Harvard and Princeton, tied with Berkeley.</p>

<p>Sakky can I please have the link to that ranking; I'd like to check out other universities myself :D</p>

<p>
[quote]
First of all, I posted this question in this (Berkeley) forum because I was expecting comments from Berkeley students and alumni. Had I wanted an opinion from Stanford students/alumni, or from YOU, I would have posted my question in the Stanford Forum. So, please do not argue with me if I do not see things exactly the way you do.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sansai, I think you are being unfair to im_blue. Look, we all have the right to free speech. You asked a question, and anybody is allowed to answer it as they see fit. If you don't like what somebody has to say, then either don't read the posts, or don't ask the question in the first place. </p>

<p>The real question I have is do you really want to get a wide. honest, and diverse set of answers? Or do you just want people to tell you what you want to hear? If it's the latter, then maybe you should just tell us exactly what you want us to say, and then we'll say it. </p>

<p>But my concern is, why are you even asking questions on an open forum if you're not prepared for the answer? If you don't want to hear the answer, then don't ask the question. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Second of all, I do not easily get persuaded by ranking games.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
US News is not a well circulated material in Asia/Europe. So this probably explain why I am not an avid supporter of that magazine. The Times of London did publish a ranking of the best universities in the World. On their first publication, Harvard did come out number one -- as expected -- and Berkeley did come next -- again, as we have expected HERE IN ASIA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First of all, you say that do not 'play the rankings game', and then you go and cite a ranking (the THES ranking). What's wrong with this picture? </p>

<p>Secondly, the THES ranking that you cite is the 2004 ranking. THES then came out with a 2005 ranking. It says the following:</p>

<p>1) Harvard
2)MIT
3)Cambridge
4) Oxford
5) Stanford
6) Berkeley</p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THES#Top_universities_overall_.28worldwide.29%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THES#Top_universities_overall_.28worldwide.29&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So even if you believe in the validity of the THES ranking (which I don't), you STILL have to concede that Berkeley is not as highly regarded in the international community as MIT or Stanford is. </p>

<p>I don't know why you are citing an old 2004 THES ranking. If you want to use THES, you should be using the latest THES ranking (the 2005 ranking). I don't go around citing the old 1996 USNews ranking, when Berkeley completely dropped out of the top 25. If you're going to cite a ranking, you should cite the most recent one. </p>

<p>
[quote]
It's just appalling that you get a reply from an outsider telling you -- you're a joke because I do not conform to his ranking and/or his personal perception. He even said, "Ask the Berkeley Profs..." duh! I did check out a site which I cannot trace it anymore but I did see it that Berkeley has more famous scientists than Stanford, only Harvard has more BUT only by a few numbers. And, several text books which we used here in school are authored by Berkeley people. So all these things -- when you add them altogether -- you can't really avoid but not to think Berkeley as a god in sciences and technology.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In Im_blue's defense, I don't think he ever called you a joke. Would you mind citing the quote where he said that? He just questioned your logic, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. </p>

<p>
[quote]
But anyhow, I already made my decision and that's final. I don't want all of us to be arguing here -- this is far from what my intention for creating this thread. My decision is final. But I did wonder at the back of my mind what other strong factors would support what I did, so I opened this thread. </p>

<p>Again, thank you to those level minded posters who have nothing but sensible contributions here. To those whiners and teasers good luck to your Stanford degree! Let's see how far your Stanford degree will open doors for you when you're pit against the mightier Berkeley alums especially if the playing field is in Europe/Asia. You might be eating your words.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, looking at the latest THES ranking, Stanford is ranked higher than Berkeley. Whether that means anything to you is up to you.</p>

<p>However, it seems to me that you are just looking for somebody to validate your choice. But that is not the purpose of CC. The purpose of an open discussion board is not to make people feel good about their choices. The purpose is to provide honest opinions. We don't all have to agree, nor should we. If you ask people here whether you should have done something, then some people here are going to say 'no', and that's a perfectly valid response. You are going to have disagreement. After all, if there was nothing to disagree about, then there would be no point in even having a discussion forum at all.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky can I please have the link to that ranking; I'd like to check out other universities myself

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sure, although I don't know if you can get in with just a 'regular' USNews account. I have a premium account. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/phdsci/premium/phy.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/phdsci/premium/phy.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You could buy a premium account for yourself, or go to your local library and get the USnews ranking.</p>

<p>Ok, thanks alot Sakky :D</p>

<p>
[quote]
I would like to understand the basis for this statement.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok. I make that argument because grad programs rankings directly measure faculty quality. When you list the major fields, it looks something like this:</p>

<p>Berkeley > Harvard</p>

<p>Anthropology
Art History
Astrophysics
Psychology
German
History
Astronomy
Sociology
ALL Engineering
Chemistry
Computer Science
Geosciences
Statistics
Spanish
Linguistics</p>

<p>Harvard > Berkeley</p>

<p>Political Science
Business
Law
Medicine
Ecology
Education
Public Policy
Classics
Comparative Literature
Philosophy
Music
French
Geography</p>

<p>Harvard = Berkeley</p>

<p>English
Economics
Biological Sciences
Physics
Mathematics</p>

<p>These ranks are taken from both USNews and NRC. Berkeley 15 Harvard 13.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/07/20_ratings.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/07/20_ratings.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/publications/pdf/nrc_rankings_1995.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/publications/pdf/nrc_rankings_1995.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And lets not forget that the London rankings gave Berkeley the highest peer review score. That means out of those academics from around the world who were surveyed, most believe that Berkeley's faculty is smarter than Harvard's.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/07/20_ratings.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/07/20_ratings.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>But you're quoting old rankings. The newest USNews ranking is the ** 2007 ** ranking, not the 2006 ranking. </p>

<p>Besides, you seem to have missed some categories. For example, Harvard is better than Berkeley in Public Health, Dentistry, Divinity, Architecture, and others.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And lets not forget that the London rankings gave Berkeley the highest peer review score. That means out of those academics from around the world who were surveyed, most believe that Berkeley's faculty is smarter than Harvard's.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no, once again, you are citing an old ranking. You are citing the old 2004 THES ranking, where Berkeley did indeed earn the highest peer review score. But THES then came out with the 2005 ranking. And according to the 2005 THES ranking, who is #1 in peer review (as well as #1 overall)? Harvard. </p>

<p>But hey, don't take my word for it. Sign up for a free trial at THES and you can see for yourself.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thes.co.uk/statistics/international_comparisons/2005/top_unis.aspx?window_type=popup%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thes.co.uk/statistics/international_comparisons/2005/top_unis.aspx?window_type=popup&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>But come on, greatesteyn. Why do you go around citing old rankings? I could just as easily cite the USNews ranking from 1996 in which Berkeley dropped out of the top 25 completely. But I don't, because if you are going to base your arguments on rankings, you should use the latest ranking.</p>

<p>Rankings are stupid.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But you're quoting old rankings. The newest USNews ranking is the 2007 ranking, not the 2006 ranking.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, fine. So are you saying that if the rankings were current, they would be legitimate? I mean, if the current date were....December 2004/January 2005, Berkeley would have the smartest faculty in the world? Is that what you are saying?</p>

<p>If that is what you are saying, could you enlighten me as to what happened a year or so ago to make Harvard go up and Berkeley go down? Lots of Berkeley retirements? Lots of new Harvard profs? Please explain. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Besides, you seem to have missed some categories. For example, Harvard is better than Berkeley in Public Health, Dentistry, Divinity, Architecture, and others.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is true. But I also missed major research areas within the humanities which are stronger at Berkeley:: South East Asia Studies, East Asian Studies, African-American Studies, Chicano Studies, Native American Studies, European Studies, Latin American Studies, Queer Studies, and Women's Studies, and Folklore. Once those fields are added, I think it's pretty clear that Berkeley's departments and therefore faculty remain superior. (Note also that I didn't list all of the engineering subfields at which Berkeley is superior to Harvard. And unlike so many departments with subfields, I feel that the engineering subfields are MAJOR fields which make Harvard's programs look even worse when compared to Berkeley's.)</p>

<p>By the way, if you are so determined to prove Harvard's superiority, could you please explain why Harvard undergraduates disproportionally choose Berkeley for grad school? I mean, why leave "greatness" if it's staring at you in the face?</p>

<p>Where are you getting the info that many Harvard undergrads "disproportionally" leave for Berkeley's grad programs?</p>

<p>From what I know, many Harvard undergrads end up going to Harvard's own medical, law, and business schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Where are you getting the info that many Harvard undergrads "disproportionally" leave for Berkeley's grad programs?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Several Harvard College graduates who are now working on their PhDs at Berkeley have told me so. </p>

<p>
[quote]
From what I know, many Harvard undergrads end up going to Harvard's own medical, law, and business schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There are two problems with this statement. </p>

<p>First, "many" is true in this context-but "many" in my eyes can range from 50 to 1 less than the majority. Which one do you mean? Please explain. </p>

<p>Second, when I talk about "graduate school," I'm not thinking of medical/law/business school. Those are professional schools. </p>

<p>Colloquial examples::</p>

<p>"I'm going to medical school." "Elle Woods is law student." "Mitch starts business school next fall." None of these students are "graduate students."</p>

<p>"Graduate student" = a person who is pursuing a Ph.D. As in: "Since I love this subject so much, I think I'm going to get a PhD in it. But if I'm serious about that long-term goal, I'll have to go to graduate school."</p>

<p>Once again, my sources tell me that out of those Harvard undergraduates who want to become professional academics (professors,) the majority of them choose to go to Berkeley for graduate school. From what I hear, it's because professors at Harvard encourage them to do so since they know that Berkeley, like Harvard, is an academic powerhouse. However, it is my personal opinion that taken as a whole, Berkeley's PhD programs are better than Harvard's.</p>

<p>Is this thread still going on? I thought it ended on page four.</p>

<p>greatestyen, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the graduate programs at Berkeley. If I remember correctly sansai is going to attend Berkeley as an undergraduate so this talk about graduate schools is really pretty useless. Berkeley is better on the graduate level, and not as good on the undergraduate level, probably not as good as Harvard's undergrad. Sure it's the same "staff," but professors are more accessible to grad students (some don't even teach undergrad), more resources, better student quality, etc.</p>

<p>Still, if sansai chose Berkeley then he chose Berkeley. It's a great school and in my opinion the difference between it and Harvard/Stanford is pretty small. I'm sure as an international student, having gotten into so many good schools, he can take full advantage of the resources offered at Berkeley.</p>

<p>By the way, "better staff" keeps getting mentioned and I often question what that means. Some people say "this school has more prize winners so better staff" but at an introductory level the material is generally the same, and it really comes down to how well the professor teaches the material not the prizes he's won, and that kind of quality is pretty hard to measure.</p>