@Sue22, the data you are referencing is for Life Sciences only and leaves our Physical Sciences, Math, Computer Science. I don’t see the relevance of such micro data at an LAC. In addition to outside funding, a school’s endowment funding for both research and facilities is very material - in the case of facilities, it’s everything.
Actually, a portion of the money goes to support the expenses of graduate students working in the PI’s lab. Believe me, I know what I’m talking about. I spent many years as an administrator in the department of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology at Harvard, where I was responsible for grad student funding. About 1/3 of our grad students’ tuition and stipends were paid directly out of NIH or NSF grants. The grants were made to a professor’s lab but the cost of graduate students, including their tuition and living costs, was contained in the budget.
In any case, this doesn’t help the OP. Can we just agree he/she should consider Wesleyan?
If you want to add another safer option, look at St Olaf in Northfield, MN. You will definitely get four seasons there! And cold winters. The campus is lovely and the nearby town is pleasant. It has a very strong record of getting students into medical school and also offers substantial merit scholarships of up to 50% the total cost of attendance.
Carleton, another strong STEM school, is in the same town, but does not offer merit scholarships.
I know you said your father will support you through medical school but that’s a lot of money over many years and economizing at the undergraduate level is worth considering. Does he have a clear understanding that full pay at an elite private college or university could be as much as 300K for a four year undergraduate degree?
You can probably aim higher but it’s good to have a mix of reaches, matches, safeties - both from a financial and an admissions point of view.
You look like a very strong candidate. Best of luck!
Absolutely consider Wesleyan - leaving out would be a huge mistake
Some of this is seriously off track and the stuff adults argue, barely germane to a hs kid in CA trying to get his bearings.
OP, get a Fiske Guide to Colleges. Today would be good.
None of the top 50 will short you on your education or goals.
Wesleyan is a great school. Middletown (where it is,) not the cute little nook. You need to breathe and think about the real week to week, what you envision. Cuddle up with Fiske. CC will throw more college names out than you can juggle. Lol. At least Fiske will provide more info and comparisons.
@Chembiodad, that’s exactly what warblersrule’s list was looking at.
True, yet how active those labs are and how successful they are at obtaining funding is material as well.
A school’s endowment can affect a school’s research but not all endowment dollars are spent equally. Some richer schools are spending money on supporting expensive art collections (how much is the insurance on a 100 million dollar collection?), ownership of ski hills or golf courses, or support of college-owned community businesses that wouldn’t break even on their own. This is one of the reasons you sometimes see smaller institutions in low COL areas punch above their weight-they’re putting their $$ into supporting the faculty and facilities.
On the other hand, in addition to facilities, a robust endowment can mean more money for undergraduate lab jobs and summer internships and the ability to attract the best faculty by paying top dollar.
@Sue22, meaning @warblersrule was only looking at Life Sciences? This is the rolled up data - not the same as what @warblersrule depicted. https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=rankingBySource&ds=herd
@Sue22 @Chembiodad Haha thanks, you all are putting up good points so I was getting a little lost there. Don’t worry, I definitely will be considering Wesleyan, I’ve already watched a ton of videos about them. I’m considering and researching almost every college that has been mentioned in this thread. Though the amount of resources that a school has is very important, I’d like to believe that the real important thing is what I would do with whatever resources are available.
@Sue22 Wow I didn’t know that Bates had such a strong debate team! It sounds really appealing I’ll definitely look into it more! It’s really cool that you have experience as an administrator at Harvard.
@lookingforward Haha I’m actually a HS girl trying to find my bearings, no biggie tho. Tbh the discussion is getting a little muddled but they all have valid points. I’ve never heard of this Fiske guide before but I’ll definitely make that investment!
@mamaedefamilia Someone did mention St. Olaf earlier on in the thread, it’s on my list of schools to check out. We did have a sit-down before to discuss how to pay for tuition. The conditions for him taking the brunt of my tuition fees are that I have to actively pursue outside scholarships myself and find a job in college. Thanks for thinking that I am a competitive applicant haha, up until now I’ve basically just pursued whatever I was passionate in and then things just turned out the way they did. I am also trying to apply to those uber-selective schools such as Yale, which I’m doing REA for, but before my problem was that I think I thought too highly of myself. Sure in my school and community I look pretty good, but I had to realize that now I’m competing against great applicants just as good as and even better than myself from all over the world. As a result, I made this thread to find some safeties and matches that I could be happy at for a well-balanced college list. Thanks for your help!
To follow up on St. Olaf and Carleton and the town in which they’re located, Northfield: It’s approximately 45 minutes from the Twin Cities and easy to get to the airport; I think there’s a shuttle at least a few times per day every day school is in session at either college. One of my nieces went to St. Olaf and I think she might have lived in Minneapolis during her senior year, because of internships there, but I’m not sure. If you’d like more information about either school, please ask, and I’ll see what I can find out.
I compiled the life sciences data because that’s the area of interest for the OP. If you dislike how Hamilton fared on the list, you’re welcome to compile the data for all of the sciences.
As for Wesleyan, it’s obviously a great option, as are the women’s colleges; again, if someone wants to compile that data and add to the list, feel free. For that matter, my stopping at the top 80 LACs was completely arbitrary.
My list was intended only as one data point, particularly one designed to draw attention to schools that punch well above their weight – Lewis & Clark and Franklin & Marshall, for example.
Agreed. The Insider’s Guide to the Colleges is quite good as well. For LACs in particular, there’s the [Colleges That Change Lives](College Profiles – Colleges That Change Lives).
Franklin and Marshall is well known in the Life Sciences arena
The math2, bio, and AP physics scores can be your challenge for premed at the most-competitive colleges. I know it was discussed.
And then, the reaearch is good, but your fmla is doing what? So often, it’s just meeting or other low impact. That leaves you with no other in-school math-sci ECs. You didn’t mention what you do at the hospital. Or any comm service with the needy.
Otoh, yes, Vietnamese can help and the connection to your culture is super.
So, you need strategy.
Where are you in OC? Competitive hs?
And if you’re also thinking law, same need for savvy. Any way you can get involved now with issues/advocacy for the local VN community? Something health related could be double bang for your buck. It doesn’t matter that it’s short term (senior, right?)
@Sue22 wrote:
Of course. Just like Amherst’s post-docs and research assistants. They’re all line items in a budget. Are we in agreement yet? :)>-
In the end, whether a school is 12 or 19th on some measure is not going to determine whether a school is best for you. I’ve seen kids at small colleges feel they’ve outgrown the school by senior year and other who are overwhelmed by a large school and find it difficult to make the personal connections they need for success in their field.
So here’s some general advice…
Consider a LAC but visit a couple before you apply. They may feel small, especially if you’re comparing them to some of the larger schools on your list. From your initial post it sounds like a LAC might be right for you. At most LACs you don’t have to declare your major until midway into sophomore year and can even change it later, giving you lots of time to consider your path forward.
Be wary of the “shining star” example. Every school will trot out their best student to impress prospective students, the one who’s been offered a gazillion internships and has been admitted to every graduate school to which they applied. That is not the average student. Try to investigate what the experience of the average student is, paying attention to where you would stand in relation to that average. The shining start might have a fabulous research job in the lab, but how many of those jobs are available? Does the school guarantee all students research funding? How often do B+ students get offers to work alongside professors? How often are they invited to research conferences?
Where would you be in relation to your peers? Would you be the shining star or the student struggling to keep up and how do you feel about each option? Some people are stimulated to do their best work when surrounded by people smarter and more driven than them. Some sink under the pressure or just end up feeling stupid. What type are you? There’s no right answer but knowing yourself can help you to select an environment where you’ll thrive.
When looking at med school admissions stats check out whether the school’s medical school committee weeds out a lot of students. Some weeding’s fine. There’s no point in the school supporting the application of a 2.0 student, but if large numbers of kids are making it to senior year intending to be pre-med then are disappointed not to receive the school’s support that’s something to consider. Look at a school’s overall employment and grad school statistics as well. I find Payscale information on salaries only marginally useful because it’s so heavily influenced by major.
Look into direct admit programs. Some schools have programs that essentially guarantee admission to specific graduate programs if the student fulfills certain criteria such as a minimum GPA. For instance, here’s a programs that offers early assurance of admission to the Tufts medical school for students from Tufts but also for the Maine schools (Bates, Bowdoin, Colby, U Maine). A BS/MD combined program probably won’t be right for you because it requires a real commitment to medicine, and it sounds like you’re not ready to make one yet.
http://medicine.tufts.edu/Admissions/Special-Admissions-Options/Early-Assurance-Program/Eligibility
Be careful with your money. This is very important. Med school and law school are both expensive. Make sure you know your budget and keep a couple of instate options on the table and/or consider schools where you’d get substantial merit awards. The Ivies and NESCACs give only need-based aid.
Remember you don’t need to major in biology to go to med school. An English major with a high overall GPA and top grades in prerequisite courses like OChem or anatomy can do quite well. What will matter most is the applicant’s GPA and MCAT scores, with research experience coming into play a bit.
Think about where you want to be if you change your mind about your major. What if you take an economics course and discover a passion for econometrics, or you discover you hate your college bio courses? What school would best support your growth in general.
Don’t let a school’s physical or social environment determine when you go to school but do consider it. I think we sometimes overestimate the contribution of things like the number of coffee shops close to campus or whether the school has a Quiddich club when discussing “fit”, but you won’t want to spend 4 years in misery. If you absolutely hate snow take the New England schools off your list. If big cities make you nauseous with anxiety stick to the more rural and suburban campuses. If you hate the idea of joining a frat or sorority consider a school with little or no Greek presence.
Your parents may not have heard of the NESCAC schools but they’re highly respected, particularly on the East Coast. In terms of alumni support and connections, you’ll find that each school has its champions (you’ve gotten a taste of that on this thread!) but that in general the alumni of the schools in the league will stick together. Williams and Amherst or Bates and Colby grads certainly compete, and might even boo and hiss at each other tongue in cheek, but when push comes to shove they have each other’s back in a way I don’t think you see in most sports leagues.
Pay as much, if not more, attention to your safety schools. You may end up at one, and you may be very happy with no regrets if it’s the right one. It’s easy to throw a Princeton onto your college list after adding Yale and Harvard, but finding the Frankin and Marshalls or the St. Olaf’s of the world takes more work. If you do the work now you’ll be much less stressed out when decisions start rolling in, knowing you have some solid likelies in your pocket.
Good luck!
@lookingforward I’m going to be retaking the Math 2 and Biology SAT Subject Tests. I know it’s low but I was actually really happy with even just the 3 on AP Physics, the teacher for that class had a 30% pass rate and I had missed an entire unit since I went to compete in an MUN conference at Rutgers University during the school year.
For FMLA each month we are focusing on different “Monthly Medical Maladies.” In the meetings we are going over these health concerns and then discussing advice for pursuing medical careers. We are also doing monthly service projects and service events. For example, in October since it’s breast cancer month we are going to be volunteering at a marathon for cancer, and are also going to be making Halloween decorations for the Children’s Hospital of Orange County. Every month we will have at least one guest speaker, for instance the director of psychology at CHOC and the general surgeon that I have been shadowing will be coming in. (I didn’t include shadowing a surgeon in my extracurriculars since it was a passive activity, I included it as a part of hospital volunteering in my activity description.) The college and career counselors at my school actually worked with me on this, so FMLA will be working in joint with the medical ROP classes, and I was asked to help organize my school and district’s career fair.
I’m not sure if you saw in my earlier reply to your post but I have other in-school math-sci ECs. (Refer to Reply #8) I also actually was the vice-president of the Key Club at my school in junior year and had amassed hundreds of hours of community service. I won the Key Leader Scholarship as well for this club. I didn’t include Mu Alpha Theta and Key Club since they aren’t really huge parts of me now, I didn’t get involved in Mu Alpha Theta until last year and I had decided not to do Key Club this year to focus on my other endeavors. I was worried that it would look like I was just resume-padding if I included all these activities, but do you think that I should include them? My initial thought was that I wanted to give the admissions committee the most accurate view of myself, and these activities just weren’t really at the center of what I love so I cut them.
My high school is in Huntington Beach and I’d say that we are relatively competitive education-wise, we are more well-known for our athletics.
I’ve been surveying the nurses at the hospital and working with the volunteer coordinator at the hospital to propose some improvements for patient care, does that work? I only started considering law recently so for now on my applications I think I’m gonna put biology and pre-med focus. I might start shadowing the director of the Public and Government Affairs and her team of lawyers at my dad’s company, he’s good friends with her and said that she would be happy to allow me to see her at work.
Yes, I am a senior.
OP, I think you’re bright, it comes across in how you present yourself in posts. My concern is you, not the hypotheticals about which colleges may or may not have more sci funding.
Volunteering at a marathon, making decorations, even a guest speaker, shadowing, etc, isn’t quite the same as kids who are doing something with healthcare delivery. Many kids you compete with for an admit to a tippy top will have had some roles that are more patient centered, that take one right into the fray. Not biggies, but which are about direct involvement with the care and emotional issues, at the right hs level. I’m wondering if the nurse survey can be worded in the right way, to show it as advocacy related. It’s about improvements, after all. And the work involved in surveys is often a level of ‘project management.’
Do think about keeping Mu on the app. Don’t decide on any ECs to drop til much later. CC talks about padding- the adcoms I know do not. All that a hs kid experienced is what she experienced (and reflects one’s thinking and choices.) (Granted, very short term, insignificant, or hopping is different. But you will need to view the picture you present, overall, for holistic.)
Huntington Beach will have a lot of achievement oriented kids. A competitive number will apply to very top colleges, less so to the ones we’ve been talking about here. Even fewer Vietnamese and who can point to strong ties to their culture. That’s good, for you.
As for the P&G affairs, rather than “shadow,” once you meet, can you vol in some way to do something, even the proverbial xeroxing, put in just enough hours to refer to it as more? Think about it. Even a few days between now and deadline is valid.
In effect, I’m suggesting that, in addition to looking for the right colleges, you try to get some read on what will make you competitive for those. Virtually any of the good colleges noted by posters can be very satisfying. But along the way, in the next ten weeks, you also need a read on what makes you a match, in their eyes.
@lookingforward I’m not really that bright, just hard-working, but thanks for the compliment anyways! When I first started volunteering at the hospital I would do stock management, making sure that all the nurses and patient rooms were well-equipped. I also did secretarial duties, putting together patient folders and answering the call-light to see what patients need. I worked most actively in the Emergency Department, stocking and setting up rooms for the patients going in and out, and NICU. The thing is, they recently changed the volunteer policy. Even though most of the nurses know me and trust me, the hospital coordinators don’t want us volunteers to be doing the jobs that they pay people for. Now I’ve basically been demoted to candy-striper status even though I’ve been at the hospital the longest out of all the high schoolers. Do you think that it is still worth it to continue with this activity or should I look for something else that I can actually be more involved in?
I probably will include Key Club and Mu Alpha Theta then. I can see if instead of just shadowing I take up more of an interning position, I know that there should be a lot of grunt work that the legal team wouldn’t want to deal with.
Up until now I’ve just done what I’m passionate in but now I need to see how what I’ve done can appeal to the adcoms. I’ve also been working a lot on my essays and supplements so hopefully I can also appeal with my personality, I have some interesting stories to talk about haha. Speaking of adcoms, I was wondering which adcoms do you know? Do you have any advice or info that you’ve learned from them? One of the moms of my teammate on tennis was actually on the Columbia admissions counsel before so she has agreed to look over my application but some other input would also be helpful!
Sometime this fall, you can decide to remain or not. You’ve put in the time. If it works with your schedule- and if you can make something out of the survey work- maybe stay. Maybe there are some results you can briefly refer to. A big part of how the hospital experience comes across in your app will be how you word it. You have done more in the past than you do now, but you did those things. SOme you may describe, others not. Candy Striper (as I understand the role) can also be worded to reflect the patient interaction, not just, “I hand out magazines” or whatever.
“…now I need to see how what I’ve done can appeal to the adcoms.” Exactly. Not fakery or puffing it up, but finding the connections. Eg, rather than, 'We make decorations," think along the lines of how you manage. The Maladies- how do you choose topics, what oversight? It’s different if you draw in some advice/guidance (and if you are instrumental in this.)
Oh. And in order to know what will appeal to adcoms, be sure you’re adequately researching what those schools say they value and want. Sometimes,“what we look for,” when they describe attributes. Or the sorts of kids they highlight.
My mom’s annual income is around $60,000. My dad makes $260,000.