I wish I weren't Asian

College Confidential Community
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<p>Lmao. Nice, TourGuide. I agree with you about breaking the stereotypes. I've said this many times before, but I'm half Asian and I hate math and science (not because I'm bad at them, but because I just find the two subjects repulsive) and love writing and politicking and doing fun things with my student government and partying and FASHION. Oh my God, fashion. So this is just a heads up to everyone that not -ALL- Asians are your stereotypical Asian...if that makes any sense.</p>

<p>Also, this thread is a huge reinforcement of fact to one of my friends who just got deferred from Columbia probably because she is a stereotypical high class Asian biochem-engineer wannabe gal. Or whatever it's called. Like you said - DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT for God's sake! Or if you want to be a math/science major, at least have some out of the ordinary extracurric's that show that you are an actual warm blooded human being with a wonderful personality!</p>

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<p>I guess we need an "EC's for Asians" thread since it seems that Asians need different EC's to be considered as equals to non-Asians.</p>

<p>Seriously, does nobody else find it ridiculous that a specific race has to do something more/different to get the same attention that an URM gets?</p>

<p>"Oh man, you were born Asian? Man, that sucks. Make sure to take EC's out of the stereotypical Asian shell if you want to level the playing field for college."</p>

<p>"Wow, you were born Hispanic/Native American!? Awesome, great job! That'll help you when it comes time to apply for colleges."</p>

<p>I swear, it's like I'm in the Twilight Zone and everybody around me thinks the above is perfectly fine...O_o</p>

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<p>Yes, it's pretty stupid. And some of us cannot help the fact that we're better at and like science/math. I probably sound like I'm whining, but whatever.</p>

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<p>Well said, azure, well said. </p>

<p>Tourmisguide, why don't whites or blacks or purples have to do "special" ECs. They're proably more human, more cool, and not "textureless math grinds" right? I bet they have larger frontal lobes as well! It is NOT ok to hold Asians to seperate standards. </p>

<p>"do some charity work instead of studying for the SATs since 7th grade"</p>

<p>Nice assumption! That's right, Asians study for the SATs since 7th grade! Didn't you hear, we're good at math!</p>

<p>"the main thing...listen to the adcoms' complaints: you all do the same f-ing things!"</p>

<p>Instead of "you all," say what you really mean. And why should an Asian listen to some bigot adcom who says they have lower "personal qualities" than whites?</p>

<p>What should an Asian do? Go to church? 4-H? Eagle scouts? These are all wholesome, acceptable (white) values that many (white) people do. But it's ok that everyone (whites) does them. But others (asians) should have to stand out.</p>

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<p>I think the bottom line in college admissions, whether you're black, white, hispanic, Asian, or Venusian is this:</p>

<p>Standardized test scores and academic achievement put you in that pile in the admissions office labeled "possible admits" It's the extracurriculars, the essays, the community service, the leadership ability, the life experiences, and the personal passion that gets you in.</p>

<p>The reason why many blacks and hispanics have an admissions edge is because they are far more likely to be economically disadvantaged and tend to live in concentrated areas of other minorities. In the United States, the history of racial prejudice has lead to the creation of subcultures with views and opinions different from those of the majority. Though exceptions do exist (and in my opinion, race should only be used as a factor in an admissions process holistic enough to determine if a person actually has grown up in an environment that differs from the majority's and sniff out those exceptions, instead of just throwing on an automatic bonus for blackness), the fact is that one's race matters in shaping most people's worldview. URMs thus offer legitimately different perspectives on life than your typical white or asian student, perspectives not adequately measured by SATs. A college has an obligation to try and expose its students to their alternative viewpoints. But that URM edge is no different in most cases (and should not be different, in my opinion) than the admissions advantages of being low-income, playing a sport, or having overcome great personal tribulation. All of these things are not fully expressed by statistics.</p>

<p>The problem for many Asians from traditional backgrounds is that there is a heavy emphasis on standardized test scores rather than those personal qualities. My Chinese friend, for instance, has had to fight her very traditional parents every step of the way through high school so that she could pursue her love of art. Her parents were both baffled and horrified. Having grown up in a system where your future depends on the college entrance exam, they were desperate to have her forsake her artistic extracurriculars in favor of SAT practice. While I'm certainly no authority on Asian culture as a whole, it does seem like a lot (though definitely not all!)of Asian children in the States are raised on the assumption that it is SAT scores that get you a spot at Yale.</p>

<p>Can a college really be blamed for rejecting kids who seem to fit that stereotypical mold, especially when Asians are already overrepresented on most elite campuses and the difference between that skinny envelope and the fat one is so slight? There IS something wrong, of course, when the adcom stereotypes before even opening the package, or upon seeing the Asian last name. I don't dispute that. One shouldn't assume that someone is a lifeless studyaholic on the basis of race. That is racist and a problem that definitely plagues many Asian applicants. It needs to be changed. But if the person in question doesn't have as many extracurriculars, is uninvolved, or is dominated by their parents, than that is a detriment. We just shouldn't assume that's the case because they're Asian. </p>

<p>What I see again and again on these boards is the utter... well, denial of the fact that someone with very high test scores might not be as deserving of a spot in the class as someone with lower test scores who might have had a more interesting application in other respects. "Merit" is not solely defined by GPA. A meritocracy rightfully should examine personal qualities and the applicant's ability to contribute a unique viewpoint to the campus.</p>

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<p>It is very wrong to discriminate against asians, but the way colleges look at apps and asians in general may be far from the truth. </p>

<p>Also, it does not 'suck' to be asian--and it works to your advantage if you are a of a unique asian culture like malaysian or indonesian where there are very few. </p>

<p>Isn't it?</p>

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<p>If you think the URMs have an unfair advantage, then put down the violin and start a group or support a group that's fighting against affirmative action. Show some guts...run the risk that someone might not like you.</p>

<p>Just because something is a stereotype, it doesn't mean it is, in general, inaccurate. When you say things like "some of us cannot help the fact that we're better at and like science/math" you are reinforcing the stereotype. Don't reinforce the stereotype and then complain about it. "But what if I WANT to major in engineering?" Then don't gripe about being stereotyped.</p>

<p>If you look past the surface of the "Asians need higher qualifications to get in XYZ University," you'll see that the reason this is so is because they tend to apply for the same small list of majors. There are all sorts of departments like anthropology, philosophy, French, and psychology that need students in them. If the top applicants are predominantly Asian, they are going to dip down into the applicant pool until they get some people to fill up those humanities and social science classrooms--they aren't going to admit all the top students if all the top students want to major in the sciences and engineering... places like Williams and Brown don't want to turn into roadshow versions of MIT.</p>

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<p>now that is a stereotype. over half of the asian applicants do humanities or social sciences.</p>

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<p>""But what if I WANT to major in engineering?" Then don't gripe about being stereotyped."</p>

<p>Do you not understand the stereotype in question here? It's that Asians are textureless math grinds, have a recluse vibe, etc. Generally traits that colleges don't want to spruce up their campus. How do you make the connection from wanting to major in engineering to "Then don't gripe about being stereotyped"? The problem is that my odds of getting into the college I want to are lowered because of the stereotype. What I'm complaining about is that these admissions people have the freedom to see our race and make assumptions based on that. The problem is that if I were a DIFFERENT race, then this wouldn't be the case. What if I were hispanic and wanted to be an engineer? That's not any stereotype that I'm aware of, so it doesn't hurt you. However, if I'm Asian and I want to be an engineer, then there IS a stereotype for this, and it'll likely be recognized when they see my major and my ethnicity.</p>

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<p>I'm Asian, I'm proud, I'm artistic, I love the humanities, I love philosophy (so much that I am know around the school as the "Female Asian Plato", which I resent, grr! - durned Internet meme thing and acronyms!), and I am FAR too loquacious. I like being random, and I've got a streak of weird wide as the Pacific Ocean. I hate school, I love learning, and I've a knack for writing, particularly sappy, romantic, Nora Robert-ish fantasy fiction, even though I'm asexual and hate sap in reality.</p>

<p>And I'm still on the track for med-school or sciences! LOL! :D :D :D</p>

<p>But really, I don't give a d a m n. :D I'll be successful no matter what, by my own merits, not by the name of some university!</p>

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<p>^ chances are you will drop out to be a housewife.</p>

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<p>Ouch... ^.</p>

<p>Yet I notice a sense of truth on fastMEd's comment...</p>

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<p>WHEEE~!</p>

<p>Housewife!</p>

<p>...NOT! :D</p>

<p>More like, leech off your money through tax-supported welfare.</p>

<p>...It'd be funny if it wasn't true.</p>

<p>BTW, it's not as though I am a scatterbrained ditz. I'm 3rd in school and taking 11-12 APs. But, hey, I'll try to hook me a rich husband.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The matter here isn't how groups are treated due to their race by society and here. This topic concerns college admissions, so the stereotypes that play into effect outside of admissions are irrelevent (And it seems like you're pulling out the emotion/race card). </p>

<p>This thread is NOT about how stereotypes of others groups affect how they are treated in society, so don't go bringing that mess into here. But for your sake, Asians (particularly Indians/Middle Easterners) are ALSO heavily treated horribly in society due to stereotypes (Just as much as whatever other races you had in mind when you made that comment).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, it is not irrelevent. Stereotypes do not exist in a vaccum. And, this discussion is a bit emotional for some Asians, as well as for others. </p>

<p>The use of stereotypes in college admissions (which includes Southeast Asians and URMs) does AFFECT how Asians and everyone else defines an applicant. Strange, but I thought it was about Asian stereotypes, college admissions, test scores, and supposed behavior by colleges to 'oppress' us Asians? How is it that our experiences, whatever they are in HS, NOT about the majority making assumptions about who Asians as a group are? And how does an Asian poster, who makes comments about other URMs and non-URMs with respect to college admissions, NOT using stereotypes or judging what is acceptable in an applicant? That is why there are differing opinions here and elsewhere on CC.</p>

<p>The college process is selective, which means that private colleges will look at its needs when crafting a class. It is the competitive nature of the process that makes every person want to define the terms, usually to our own benefit.</p>

<p>Again, how is it that social, political, and economic history of applicants irrelevent to the discussion whether Asian or not? Asian stereotypes are used to make judgements about the group vs. others. So it is about how society treats different groups.</p>

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<p>Stereotypes are facts blown out of proportion. If people think Asians are "textureless math grinds," then we probably are. Sure, if you AREN'T a math grind (I'm absolutely terrible at math- and I don't mean, "ohgnoes, I got a 89% in AP Calculus BC!!1one") you kind of get screwed over, but there's no use crying over it. Prove to the world that Asians can have personality, and eventually, they'll acknowledge you for it. Look at Margaret Cho, Amy Tan, Ziyi Zhang. They're all Asian, but the last thing people would think about them are that they're "textureless math grinds."</p>

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<p>What I'm saying is that stereotypes outside of admissions are irrelevant, Asian or not. As in it isn't important (here, in this discussion) that URMs have to face stereotypes outside of college admissions. With this specific problem/thread, that isn't the issue and shouldn't matter here. In the real world these stereotypes/prejudices against URMs are AWFUL, but in this thread they have no place as it sounds like an emotional plea to back up those that support AA. Hispanics, African Americans, etc. have to deal with racism, yes. They have to deal with stereotypes and all of that horrible stuff, yes. But we're only talking about with respect to admissions. I don't care how bad they have it, it doesn't justify the AA against Asians (It sounds like you're saying "Asians aren't the only ones that have to deal with stereotypes! Other races deal with stereotypes and racism every day!" Which is an emotional plea).</p>

<p>Kemikaruu - There's no use crying over it, but can you give us some suggestions on what we can do to make a difference and end all of this AA crap?</p>

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<p>Actually, that is the reality.</p>

<p>Emotional? It can be if you choose to see it that way. It has not been proven that Asians are discriminated against in the college admissions process, necessarily. Also, Southeast Asians sometimes benefit in ways that East Asians do not, at least according to admissions officers at some schools.</p>

<p>The issue for Asians is an emotional one, because the idea is that they are hurt by affirmative action policies (which deal with gender as well as ethnicity). How often do you see protests over males having an edge in college admissions over women on CC? Not often. What is the focus, and what some people point to with respect to AA is ethnicity. Why, because it is EASY to categorize based on percieved differences...especially when an applicants individual or group history is NOT considered specifically.</p>

<p>The idea that certain qualifications NECESSARILY make some better than others (including in this thread) is what some Asians are objecting to. But, at the same time, they make statements about stats that can indicate/poin to their belief, conscious or not, that those numbers are more important that other characteristics. I posted an article here about quota's for 10%ers, that deals with diversity in admissions. Some adcoms would disagree with the position that some Asians take on who is most QUALIFIED.</p>

<p>It's difficult to argue for both the individual and the collective, because sometimes they are oppositional forces, when a group is not in the majority or in power. The unfortunate thing is that every URM (Asians included) is by default an example of their group--great for those that meet or exceed social expectations, but bad for those that do not. </p>

<p>For some Asians, me included, being seen and treated as an individual is what is preferable. But, that NECESSARILY means that other Asians who are in a less advantaged position will lose out with respect to college admissions to private schools. </p>

<p>It is the nature of a selection process (and who defines what the needs are) that make for holistic, and sometimes 'discriminatory' chocies based on gender, ethnicity, special talent, georgraph, recs, ECs, essays, HS, legacy status, development considerations, etc...</p>

<p>I don't particularly like the state of AA. I prefer a more holistic approach to the issue, thus I advocate for socioeconomic AA. The problem, as I see it, is that it is difficult to dismantle AA, without first deciding on what will replace it and how the new practice will be implemented. If you dismantle AA before you have another, better practice in place, you will create inequity that is more extreme.</p>

<p>Again, despite being somewhat average for an Asian (and a non-minority), by statistical measures and by CC standards, I was able to do well in the admissions game. The college selection process was long, but I did my research, my parents were supportive, and my HS counselor well versed. </p>

<p>Emotional? Not for me. I had reach/match/safety schools that were in different geographical regions, sometimes had more women than men, fewer Asians, and stuck to colleges with a more holistic admissions program. I understood that the process was competitive, and that I may not get into my first choice LAC. Should I chalk up my waitlist letter to Asian discrimination? I don't believe so, but I could be wrong. The issue, in my case, is that I got accepted to some reach schools that other Asian CC'ers complain about as perhaps systemically discriminating against Asians as a group.</p>

<p>You need to choose, because you are a minority group, whether you are an individual or an example of your group. For better or worse sociologically, Asian's can't have it both ways. Likewise, other URM groups cannot have it both ways. Either they are individuals or they are a group for admissions purposes. It's a power issue. The people who have the power define the boundaries, no matter their ethnicity. Hawaii is a good example of this idea.</p>

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<p>wow Isleboy what a load of bull!</p>

<p>All those assumptions about how asians complain about "biased criteria" like "essays and ecs". </p>

<p>What the hell? Asians are complaining about ecs and essays. What we are complaining about is that everything we do is discounted. An asian with the exact ecs will get a 5 while a white will get a 7 for the extracurricular category out of 9. That is what asians are complaining about. </p>

<p>Or when an asian teaches himself violin = parents forced him to and paid for it</p>

<p>white guy's parents pay for lessons = virtuouso violinist with passion</p>

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<p>I'm Asian and I'm not a particularly stellar student. I love the the life sciences more than I do chemistry or physics or math. I don't like to study for school but at work (I'm a vet assistant) I try to find out everything. One of my biggest passions is theatre; I love theatre and I hope to major in it. Is that weird for an Asian? I don't think so.</p>

<p>I go to a school where students are insanely competitive and 100% gradestalkers. Most of them study hard, but are quiet and unsocial. And they're all Asians. I don't mean to discriminate against my own race, but I like social people who realize that there is life outside of GPAs and SAT scores.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
What the hell? Asians are complaining about ecs and essays. What we are complaining about is that everything we do is discounted. An asian with the exact ecs will get a 5 while a white will get a 7 for the extracurricular category out of 9. That is what asians are complaining about. </p>

<p>Or when an asian teaches himself violin = parents forced him to and paid for it.</p>

<p>white guy's parents pay for lessons = virtuouso violinist with passion

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</p>

<p>Uhh...have you been reading this thread FastMEd?</p>

<p>Where exactly is the proof of that? What adcom at which private schools do that, and what statistical measure are you looking at?</p>

<p>BTW--I do play the violin, piano, and the oboe, and my stats are pretty average for an Asian. I did send in a tape that was commented on by profs at all my college choices. By your measure, I should have been rejected because of the supposed stereotype.</p>

<p>And, of course we use Golden's new book and the position he takes as gospel because that is what we want to believe...since the acceptance rate at Harvard is 17% for Asians, 18-19% for Whites, 20% for Latinos, and 32% for African-Americans.</p>

<p>Please...the problem as some see it is the rate for Black vs. the Asian acceptance rate...never mind that fewer of the former apply to Harvard than the latter. Also notice that the 3% difference between Latinos and Asians is made larger, by grouping Latinos with Blacks as some CCer's have done. That does play into Asians making assumtions about Latinos specifically because of their URM status--their ethnicity. Hypocracy.</p>