I think the key question is whether an applicant has been offered a spot on the team. @tkoparent’s student applied a few years after mine so has more recent experience, but our sense, including talking with families of younger athlete’s on my kid’s team, was that Denison didn’t have a formal “slot/tip” etc. process. The athletes we knew at Denison had strong high school academic backgrounds so we didn’t hear chatter from families about worries about acceptance. If the coach wanted the kid on the team and offered a roster spot provided the student applied ED, and student then applied ED, admissions didn’t seem to be a problem.
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@going4three, it isn’t clear whether you feel your best recruiting chances are for 3B, LF or pitching. The following thread is fairly instructive about pitching speeds and where they can get you, although pitching is about so much more than speed. If he is pitching flat at 88, without control and is getting crushed, that point also would be instructive. Nevertheless, it gives some context.
D3 schools are a great option, of which Denison is one. If you are looking for a good D3 baseball program, set forth below is the pre-season 2021 D3 ranking (based on what, I don’t know). Once again, take it for what it’s worth. There are plenty of good to great baseball programs that are not listed in the ranking. Note that Denison is ranked no. 16.
http://baseballnews.com/collegiate-baseball-div-3-poll-12-22-20/
@Midwestmomofboys and @gointhruaphase Thank you again for the information, there is a ton to learn! DS has some good location control at 84 FB and his curve is coming along nicely. He feels he thrives at pitching and 3B, his coaches place him centerfield or left field when they are nervous about a strong hitter coming up in the line-up. He has great composure on the mound and leads from there. He has been lifting a lot these past 6 months with Covid shutting things down, we will be getting some new metrics in the next 4 weeks with his ex-Padres player coach who believes in him. He’s in his junior year and just grew another inch.
Developing an admissions strategy for him an ongoing process that keeps being revised as new information comes in. Many diversity fly-in programs we were looking are iffy this coming admissions cycle too. We been told by many to play the cards we were dealt wisely. A Native American URM with an IB, High GPA, a few long term ECs who is a decent athlete; 10 years Football and baseball with baseball winning out by a smidge, (He has excelled on his football team too) and is a US citizen (Birth Abroad). SAT projected to be 1410-1490 (March 13). Income is >65K/year, so we will qualify for some need-based money. Academically, he will be sought after by some schools, we are told.
He applied last summer to the Harvard Secondary School program and was accepted but I heard about it too late and didn’t get the opportunity to apply for any financial aid. We did this after Covid hit because he was climbing the walls, wanting something to do! So that was how I discovered Unis have HS summer programs! This year, we are applying in time to get a shot at some help so he can take some courses and explore areas of interest to see what sticks. Thanks for the information, I will go over it and see where we land. There are so many talented people out there so it’s hard to gauge where he will fit in and be happy.
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You are going to have to follow the leads of the college coaches who he speaks with about where they want him to play.
IMO his pitching metrics are his strength , with exit velo just average, and speed below average (e.g., he would not be able to play outfield at the college level with his current 60 time). Of course he may have marked improvement in some metrics over the next few months or so. D3 coaches are likely to be relatively more open to him playing more than one position and/or sometimes pitching, and I second looking at NESCAC and NCAC schools.
Edited to add: Because he is hooked as a Native American, I would also create a college list that may not include being an athletic recruit. Meaning, Dartmouth baseball coach might say no, but Dartmouth stays on the list because they are specifically looking for Native Americans. In that case, your S can ask both football and baseball coaches if it would be possible for him to walk on to the team if he were admitted without coach support as an athletic recruit.
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My son’s IB scores were 5’s and 6’s, his HLs were Psych, Theatre and Language & Lit, so a different track from your son. At Denison, he is double-majoring in Psych and HESS (Health Education and Sports Science). We actually discovered Denison pretty late in the game. My son is a US citizen, with Asian ethnicity and educated entirely abroad. I grew up on the East Coast without much experience of the Midwest and so initially focused more on schools in other areas. Denison seemed like an almost perfect fit, however, so he applied RD without having seen the school and just corresponding with the coach. He received a very generous offer and then when we did visit and he met with the the coach, his decision was made. It was quite painless and he’s been very happy. Over the winter break, he’s been working through a first-level coaching certification program that his coach recommended. It’s been our experience that the school has reached out to him in many different ways so that even after just a year and a half, and even with COVID, he feels very involved. He’s working in the Admissions Dept., he’s tutoring language students and mentoring international students, he did an interesting internship with one of the Black Studies professors last spring and now he’s doing this certification. For a kid who’s both a serious student and a serious athlete, it’s a great school. The president, Adam Weinberg, is a star, very thoughtful and very inspirational. Here’s an item from 2019 that will give you a sense of how academics and athletics mesh: Denison University trains athletes to lead in sport, professions, and life (October 24, 2019) | News
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I don’t know what you mean by an ‘academic red shirt.’ The NCAA only cares about the 5 years to play 4, and the clock starts running when you take your first college term, whether you are playing or not. If you take a year off of school, doesn’t matter, the clock is still running.
There are some exceptions for injuries, for religious missions, for military service, but for the vast majority of student athletes, they have 5 years to get 4 seasons of playing in. What constitutes a ‘season’ is different for each sport. For football, if you play in fewer than 4 games, that can be a red shirt season.
It doesn’t sound like JUCO is right for your son. It wouldn’t buy him more time academically or extend his eligibility for baseball. If baseball is his first priority, perhaps look at some of the schools in NC, SC, Georgia and Florida where baseball is really strong (and the season is longer). There are a lot of D2 schools where he could get athletic and merit scholarships, and they have very good academics too.
You do have to watch the length of the merit scholarships. My daughter’s was for 8 consecutive semesters, so while the NCAA gave her 5 years to play 4, the school only gave her 8 consecutive semesters.
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@tkoparent, thank you for sharing those details, sound like there are a lot of opportunities to contribute to the community there! This gives insight to what type of school this is! Thank you!
How is the academic redshirt certification different than the competition certification? - NCAA.org and this
https://therecruitingcode.com/what-is-a-red-shirt-2/ where athletically, you can defer a year to develop, academically, you need time to get up to snuff is what I meant.
Although Denison is the school I know best, and I am obviously a fan of the school, there are a lot of great LACs out there that would undoubtedly welcome your son even without the baseball hook, including many schools that commit to meeting full need. If your son is serious about law school, an LAC can provide great preparation. What law schools are looking for are people who are strong analytical thinkers and write well. Going through the IB Diploma program is a good start for that (TOK and the EE are tough at the time but really pay off later), and a liberal arts education is an excellent next step. I don’t mean to suggest that a larger university cannot also provide a good set-up for law school, I’m just speaking from my own experience as a lawyer. It also depends on the individual, of course; some kids, like my son, flourish in a smaller environment where everyone knows you, while some other kids like the big-school atmosphere and the option of maintaining a little anonymity.
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The athletic eligibility clock doesn’t start running until the student starts school. If your son wants to take a year (or two, or six) before starting school, he can and retain all eligibility. It’s starting school that starts the clock.
This ^^^ article is about students who don’t meet academic qualifications to play - grades, SAT (waived during covid), not the right courses in high school - and what can substitute, or how they start school to take remedial courses and get a time waiver. Your son won’t have trouble being qualified academically.
Your initial post implied that he’d go to JUCO to retain eligibility, and I just wanted you to realize that even at JUCO, he’s using his eligibility. If you have Netflix, watch Last Chance U to get an idea of the academics at some JUCOs. Some of the players are serious students, but most are not.
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Thank you for the clarification. Everything is such a learning curve. Yes, the last couple of days have kiboshed the idea of JUCO! My son has watched that program you mentioned and said no to JUCO especially if the clock on the 4 years starts running! We are now taking a hard look at NCAC and NESCAC schools. Denison says on their webpage that it meets 100% of need based on FAFSA and CSS profile. Even though we live in Canada, my husband’s main income is from the neighboring state. It will be interesting how the schools classify my son, who is a US citizen but lives in Canada. I haven’t gotten that far into it! Will produce the W2s but hope this won’t be an issue!
As long as your son is a U.S. citizen, he will be treated as such and will not be considered an international applicant. (That’s not Denison-specific but goes for all schools as far as I’m aware.) We were in the same position. The schools my son applied to never questioned his treatment as a domestic applicant, but I had to learn to steer around the international applicant pages that lead you into things like TOEFL requirements.
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The meets full need met schools will likely be better for you financially at your stated income level than schools who do not meet full need but might have merit and certainly much better than D1 or D2 baseball scholarship schools, where at most he might get a 1/4 to a 1/2 scholarship.
While your son certainly has recruitable D3 stats, professional baseball is realistically not in the cards and it sounds like his goal is maximizing his chances for a career in law. Our approach with both of our kids was can we leverage the sport to a more certain college admissions outcome at a favored school. We therefore based our list on school fit first and then pursued the coaches through emails, contact at camps (including school specific camps) and working our travel ball coach to help out (limited because the organization was geared to D1/Juco/pro prospects). We were full pay, so financial concerns were not part of our calculus, but for the most part, the academic D3’s and Ivies have some of the most generous need based FA out there.
All of the above sounds kind of daunting, but I guarantee the picture becomes clearer quickly. At this point, casting a wide net is fine and a good strategy. You don’t even need to do that much research because what you and your son will be doing is preparing a sports resume (Years varsity, key stats (outcome like W/L, ERA, K/BB, BA, OPS and metrics like velo, exit speed, foot speed), awards/recognition plus academic stats GPA, test scores if any) and video (live game (pitching, hitting and fielding) and skills (bullpen pitching with radar in foreground, batting cage/BP, fielding with a radar gun capture of throwing velo or for outfield, throws from right to 3B and home) that you can email to however many schools you want. Schools that are interested will let you know.
Yes you will need to follow up. Many coaches will want to see your son live. But if they want to recruit your kid, they will come to you. Coaches that are noncommittal, and they could be really polite, don’t have your kid on the short list. We have seen too many parents at these camps and in our HS who see and hear only what they want to see and hear and end up severely disappointed.
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Thank you @BKSquared, you have such sound advice, we have some showcase video and game highlights. Last year we had hoped to go to the headfirst camps as a sophomore going into junior year but the border was closed. We didn’t do anything earlier because we felt he needed to grow and develop. We were told to wait until you really have something to show. We are hoping to get there this summer as a Junior going into Senior year and fingers crossed they open up the border. The next best thing is working with his coach and then streaming live when bullpen throwing is happening with radar or the hitting clinic is on. Our province didn’t open up to very much playing time last summer, have old tape of him as a Sophomore during fall ball but that seems so long ago and doesn’t show his development but if that is all we have of his play, it is better than nothing I guess. Are coaches really traveling around? With so many restrictions, how are they doing it? Can they come to Canada?
I would not rely on coaches travelling except to marquis events, like the larger more selective Perfect Game tournaments, or targeted paid camps where they are “instructors” like Headfirst, Showball or some of the larger college camps like Stanford. We did see quite a few coaches and pro scouts at the Arizona Fall Classic, which was kind of by invitation only. I think there are similar events elsewhere. In the past, for my daughter who played on a team that made it to the State championships of a powerhouse state, with a teammate who was a heavily recruited D1 player or my son who had a lefty teammate who threw in the 90’s and went to a Big 12 program, we did see coaches and scouts in the stands, but they were there to see those kids or similarly talented kids on the other teams. For big regional travel ball tournaments, we would see some coaches, but mostly from regional schools (lots of jucos) and they were there to watch specific kids. Baseball teams do not have big recruiting budgets. They are trying to get the most bang for their buck in terms of money and time as well.
I would rethink your video strategy and content. Coaches fully expect to see “produced” videos. They want to see both game highlights and skills videos. With a video (we uploaded ours on a YouTube channel we created for each kid), the coaches can see what is important to them on their schedule. They don’t have to tune in at a specified time for a live stream. Many also like to look at video several times, sometimes frame by frame or slow motion. They are looking for physicality and technique. Game videos show a kid in real game situations and pressures. Skills videos show technique and raw talent. I shot a bunch of skills videos for a number of players because we had the radar gun and the kids could take turns hitting fungo’s, playing first, catching and operating the radar gun. I put the video’s on YouTube and sent the link to the other parents for them to copy onto their desired medium. There are companies that do professional video’s, but we did not find it necessary. High quality video is so easy to shoot these days.
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He has one produced video of good quality from a PBR showcase, is that ‘produced’ enough? Otherwise it’s a ‘my shaking hand’ video quality where I tried to get his best work. I have enough skills videos, that I can get a videographer student at the school to splice and produce. Next is to revamp the college list. We didn’t look much at D2 schools because we figured (right or wrongly) he didn’t have a shot. Dartmouth, Denison, Wooster, and maybe Cornell or Brown as Hefty Reaches. I like the idea of sport being something to help with opening opportunities, but he really loves baseball with football a close second, Football coach says he’s good for Canadian Colleges but DS went with Baseball in the end.
URM status should help somewhere. If he goes URM STEM for undergrad, would that help? IB course load IB History HL, IB English Literature HL, IB Physics HL, IB Math SL, IB Chem SL and IB French SL, Great GPA, ECs, Outdoor Ed, Duke of Edinburgh Silver Medal, Primary class volunteer 2.5 years (covid stopped that) Provincial Indigenous Organization Volunteer with fitness, Concert Band: Euphonium &Tuba for 6 years, Named to NAIG 2020 ball team to represent province (covid cancelled), Cultural ECs: Coming of Age Ceremony, Drummer and singer, canoe journeys Indigenous Language classes, public speaking. I feel he could add to any top college class and bring an Indigenous flavour to the campus. He’s proud of his heritage.
But why no NESCACs? Williams, Amherst, Hamilton, Bates, Wesleyan, Middlebury, Bowdoin, and Colby all have tremendous resources and excellent financial aid.
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Yes the NESCACs and NCACs for sure! He’s Scheduled to do research on the NCACs tonight and Wednesday Friday the NESCACS to get an introduction to these schools. Virtual tours are helpful, If anyone has a website or something that can give more of the campus vibe that would be a great help to us!
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As a pitcher, you need a video from behind the catcher throwing 3x all of his pitches (FB, and at least 1 offspeed pitch) from the windup and the stretch with a radar gun simultaneously showing velocity. Also helps to have video from his front/right side showing throwing motion/mechanics. If he has a good breaking ball, an angle from behind the pitcher is also helpful to present a clear view of ball movement.
For hitting, views from behind and his front side. Cage plus out door BP to give an idea of how sharply hit the balls are. I have seen videos of kids hitting off a tee with a radar gun tracking bat speed.
Fielding: wide angle from home showing 3x balls hit to his left, right, at him and slow roller, including throws to first. Perhaps a few showing throws to 2B as part of DP. Not as important for third vs MI. Angle from behind 1B showing at least 3 throws from third with radar reading.
For skills video I’d buy or borrow a tripod so that you are not shaking.
D2 is not the way to go for your kid. Based on what you have shared, I think he has a good shot at academic D3’s and even Ivies without baseball. He will need to score in the 1400/1500’s without a baseball hook.
Most of the NESCACs had/have diversity fly-ins. Also Swat. I think he has a good chance to be a recruited pitcher if he is sitting at 84 for D3.
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I just looked through the D3 forecast rankings for '21. A couple of highly-ranked schools (academics as well as baseball) that jumped out at me as possibilities for your son - Washington University at St. Louis, Johns Hopkins, Trinity College (Connecticut), Trinity University (San Antonio), and Tufts. They all seem to meet full need. I saw that Wooster was right behind Denison at 17. Wooster/Denison is the big rivalry in track, so it must be crazy in baseball. Trinity College and Tufts are NESCAC, so your son is probably already looking at those, but the others may be worth some investigation as well. My son looked very carefully at Trinity University in Texas, as I have relatives in San Antonio. It’s a beautiful school that’s moving up rapidly in the rankings and spending money to attract strong students. Very strong athletics and great facilities.
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