<p>Our public school system is considering instituting an IB program. I have heard of IB but have zero experience with it, except through a google search. We currently have an extensive program of AP classes.</p>
<p>How does IB compare to the current system of AP classes?</p>
<p>Is it possible to run and IB and and AP program simultaneously? Is it possible?</p>
<p>Does anyone know a good source for information on the IB program?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>My daughter's school has both. It's a NYC public school. Here's the IB website: <a href="http://www.ibo.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.ibo.org/</a></p>
<p>My daughter's high school (public magnet) ran both an IB and an AP program. She did both, and I think she'd probably say that the IB program/diploma was considerably more intense and more work than AP. The IB exams are much tougher as well. The AP courses varied in intensity, depending on the subject and the instructor, but as I remember, there were some AP courses that were taught in conjunction with the IB, and those were much more intense-- a lot more work. From what I can gather, the IB program is much more uniform (in what's taught) than AP courses, which can vary from school to school, I imagine. Again, the IB exams--especially the higher levels--were far tougher than any of the AP exams (in her experience).</p>
<p>My son is also at a school that offers IB and AP. I's say that IB is harder
than AP in the sense that digging a ditch by hand is harder than using
a backhoe. That is, yes IB is more WORK, but I'm not convinced that
any more is learned. Especially in math in science, when I compared the
syllabi, I thought the AP courses were better. FWIW.</p>
<p>At my school we have the IB program, but we also take the AP tests (and in most classes, the teacher works to make sure we also know any AP material that isn't on IB...for some classes, it's truly a dual curriculum, and for some they will offer outside AP study sessions, etc.)
I personally thought this was really great methodology, and obviously it's possible. We had several AP classes sophomore year, before IB truly began (one could take an AP as an elective freshman year, but almost no one does). Then in junior year, be begin IB, but continue to have a pretty big focus on APs: for example, for our IB HL History of the Americas, we do all of the pertinent US history in junior year, and prepare for the AP USH exam. Then, in senior year, we cover the additional IB History topics. SL Psychology, is presented as one semester focusing on AP, and one on IB, though both parts contribute to one another, the AP is more based on learning terms from every aspect of psych, which IB requires going more in depth on a few significant psycological theories.
I really liked the way my school does this. It allowed me to get the IB diploma, while also stacking up some nice AP scores, and helped maximize the amount of credit I could get for college.</p>
<p>"At my school we have the IB program, but we also take the AP tests (and in most classes, the teacher works to make sure we also know any AP material that isn't on IB...for some classes, it's truly a dual curriculum, and for some they will offer outside AP study sessions, etc.)
I personally thought "</p>
<p>That's how my daughter's school does it. She is excited about the IB because of the writing component. That's where she truly shines.</p>
<p>At every college info session I went to someone asked how IB was viewed versus AP.</p>
<p>At EVERY school the admissions officer lit up and said something along the lines of 'We LOVE IB'.</p>
<p>ses: Yes, I do think it's viewed very positively. I suspect most admissions committees know how much work goes into that IB curriculum and receiving the diploma. </p>
<p>geomom: At my daughter's high school (and she graduated hs in 2005), the IB program was really focused on the sciences (much more than on the humanities, I thought). Her courses, especially physics, were very rigorous, most especially the IB physics exam. I also agree with zoosermom that she ultimately appreciated and valued the amount and level/quality of research and writing that was required, which prepared her extremely well for university. She also ended up with 11 AP courses, but I still suspect she would say that the IB was more intense-- maybe more indepth. And there's no doubt that the IB exams are much tougher, especially higher level, than the AP exams.</p>
<p>I'm in the IB program, but I don't know much about AP and can't compare the two from personal experience. What I've heard, though (and this may not be true- just what I've heard), is that the IB is less about memorizing than AP. It is certainly true that in the IB, we have to do a LOT of critical thinking, analyzing, etc. The people in history seem to spend as much time evaluating sources as memorizing dates. In psych, the emphasis is more on comparing the relative strengths and weaknesses of various theories than simply knowing what those theories are. </p>
<p>We do a lot of writing in the IB; the amount varies from school to school, of course, and mine tends to have more than others do. Still, because of the "IAs" (internal assessments), everyone doing the IB program HAS to write alot. So, for example, in econ, we write 4 750-word commentaries. In math, a 1500 (?) word investigation. In psych, a 1500 (?) word research project. In Language A1, two (I think?) 1500 word world lit essays. And then, to prepare us for those, which factor into the final grade, we get a ton of practice assignments...</p>
<p>The IB has three things that AP doesn't: CAS, ToK, and the EE. CAS (Creativity, Action, Service) is an excellent way to do things outside of school that you'd never considered before. I've started several activities that I've come to love, that I never would have done if not forced to by CAS. ToK (theory of knowlege) is a philosophy-like course that really does teach you to think critically. The EE (extended essay) is a 4,000 word research paper that is probably the most frustrating, difficult, painful things I've done in high school. Its also probably what I've learned the most from. </p>
<p>Also, in the IB you have to take courses in 6 different subject areas (first language, second language, social science, natural science, math, and art/music/theater or another from one of the other groups). If I understand right, you can chose which APs to take. So, in the IB you can't just do what you're good in- you have to have tough classes in all your subjects. It can be difficult, sure, but it's good (I think).</p>
<p>I would guess that the IB has more of an international focus than AP does. International perspective is really imbedded in the IB curriculum- it's a great way to get a better understanding of the rest of the world. </p>
<p>Good IB information (some serious, some stupid/funny but can help you get an understanding for the typical IB-mentality!):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ibscrewed.net%5B/url%5D">http://www.ibscrewed.net</a>
<a href="http://www.**************.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=10%5B/url%5D">http://www.**************.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=10</a>
<a href="http://wicked-ib.winter-flower.net/%5B/url%5D">http://wicked-ib.winter-flower.net/</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/useful_ib_websites/humour.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.geocities.com/useful_ib_websites/humour.html</a></p>
<p>Our S's school just started an IB program - 2007 was second graduating class. IB start-up was alittle rough. Most (if not all) classes were IB/AP because there were not enough kids to justify separate classes. Scheduling the first year was a nightmare. As more teachers got IB training and more sections were offered and the scheduling got better.</p>
<p>The class content was probably the same for AP and IB students - with a few after school sessions for the IB students. I think all the IB kids also took the AP exams and did MUCH MUCH better on the AP exams.</p>
<p>I think the value of IB was in the schedule of all high level classes (no slacker classes possible), the TOK (Theory of Knowledge) class and the extended essay. Very valuable preparation for college level work. The CAS (Community, Art, Sport or whatever it stands for) component was no big deal since all those kids were doing those things anyway. The program created a tremendous bond between the 9 kids who completed the program - sort of "us together against IB ". </p>
<p>I'm not sure if you ask the kids they would say it was worth it, but from a parental point of view I think it was a good choice. Oh and the list of colleges those kids got into was very very impressive.</p>
<p>I think the quality of programs can vary greatly from school to school, certainly the classes that are offered vary. My S, who is not exactly a stellar student although a strong B-B+ student and took all IB/AP courses in hs, did pursue the IB diploma even though for him, it was probably a little more demanding and took up much more of his time than he could really handle, and in hindsight he might have been better off not pursuing a full diploma and having a slightly less stressful last yr since he was never intending to apply to ivies/elites/highly selective schools to begin with. At his public school the sciences were quite weak, there were no HL levels for either chemistry or physics which were the areas he excelled in (he is going into engineering), the only HL science offered was Biology which makes S queasy so he took that only 1 yr. </p>
<p>At S's hs, I think only 1/3 of the students who start the program actually complete it and get a diploma (they have had an IB program for about 4 yrs now); and instead students will opt for pursuing IB subject certificates in areas they are stronger in and take the tests for only those courses (similar to AP) and then take other AP courses as well as IB courses (his hs offers both and some were interchangeable - one course that covered both AP and IB rather than an AP course and another IB course; I am guessing this is one factor that might have effected the quality of their program). Yet he felt that the IB program had been worthwhile/prepared him well for college, and was glad he had taken it, even though he probably could have had a higher gpa with other AP courses. </p>
<p>Also, since diplomas are not issued until the summer after sr yr, a diploma is not a consideration for college admissions - perhaps another reason that some students may decide against pursuing the diploma? Colleges can also vary in how they award credits for IB classes so that might be something to check into if you have some specific schools in mind already. For instance, S's college gives credit (2 semesters worth) for the 2-yr/HL IB courses where a student receives a required minimum score on the IB tests but nothing for 1-yr IB courses, even though you can receive college credit (1 semester) for 1-yr AP courses. And our state school gives credit for lower minimum test scores than the OOS private school he now attends.</p>
<p>So, depending on the quality of your school's particular program, the student's abilities and interests, and also where they plan to apply, students may want to carefully consider all their options before deciding on the rigor of the full diploma route. It may not be the best route for all college-bound students. But I would certainly agree that it is the most rigorous overall, and provides a more well-rounded hs education.</p>
<p>My son’s highschool offered both. This was an international school in Asia. Most of the non-Americans chose the IB. The Americans were fairly well split among IB diploma, AP courses and a combination of IB + AP courses. I could give you instances of kids who were accepted into the most selective U.S. colleges from all three options.</p>
<p>My son chose to do the full IB diploma. I feel (and he’d concur) that he benefited greatly from the discipline and intensity, especially the analytic writing focus. TOK was a highlight of high school as abstract philosophical thinking is seldom taught at that level. </p>
<p>His bane was the art classes. Maybe it was the insecurity of his instructor, but he felt that the overlay of the IB evaluation system on artistic creativity was contradiction in terms. </p>
<p>In retrospect, I wish the school had taken a stand and chosen one or the other. The cost of funding both programs in depth would have been prohibitive. (This is a high school with about 300 students in each grade.) Having two parallel programs severely limited the course choice in each. I understand this was especially difficult in the sciences. My son noticed it in the social studies courses.</p>
<p>The teachers were intensely loyal to their “brand” and influenced the kids’ choices. Kids would eschew IB because Mrs. X said the English program limited the instructor’s creativity. Kids would sign up for TOK because of the charisma of Mrs. Y. We parents were buffeted between the two and it was very difficult to get an unbiased opinion.</p>
<p>Colleges that are used to judging AP grades and scores still have a hard time fitting the IB round peg in the AP square hole. The exams are different, the scores are different, the timing is different. </p>
<p>For the best information, I would talk to some teachers who are currently involved in an IB program, especially at schools that have both IB & AP. Believe me they will either love it or hate it, but they will for sure give you the inside word.</p>
<p>My daughter just finished the IB diploma at a school that has a large (100 kids per year), long-established, very successful IB program. </p>
<p>So I can only speak to the program itself, not to the experience of being in an IB startup.</p>
<p>A few minuses: </p>
<p>IB is less flexible than a regular high school program that includes APs. On paper, or on the IBO Web site, it looks extremely flexible, but in reality, individual schools can offer only a small proportion of the potential IB courses in existence, and schools also face constraints in terms of adapting IB to meet state and district graduation requirements.</p>
<p>IB, because it requires students to devote a substantial amount of time to each of six subject areas, may not be to the liking of students who prefer to specialize in, say, science. </p>
<p>Colleges often give less credit and advanced placement for IB than for AP. As others have mentioned, students often compensate for this by taking BOTH the IB and AP exams after completing an IB course, and schools often work with them to help them out with this by including specifically AP course material in the IB courses. My daughter, who is going to Cornell, *got absolutely no college credit or advanced placement based on her IB test scores even though she got a 6 or 7 on every IB exam that she took.<a href="IB%20tests%20are%20scored%20on%20a%207-point%20scale.">/i</a> Cornell gives no credit for any IB standard level tests, does not give credit for higher level tests in two of the three subjects she took higher level (history and music), and in the one instance where they do give credit (higher level English), she got a 6 on the exam, and they only give credit for a 7 (the highest possible score). On the other hand, she took AP tests to back up four of her six IB tests, got 5s on all of them, and got credit for all of them (including English -- it is far, far easier to get a 5 on an AP exam than a 7 on an IB exam). That's the way the system works sometimes.</p>
<p>IB has a political and international agenda, which shows up in some courses more than in others. </p>
<p>IB courses may not provide ideal preparation for SAT subject tests, especially in the sciences, because the IB system forces students to postpone their most advanced work until senior year, which is too late for SAT subject tests. </p>
<p>On the other hand:</p>
<p>I cannot imagine anything that would better prepare a student for college than IB does. </p>
<p>IB kids work HARD. For example, to complete higher-level IB music, my daughter had to record 20 minutes of solo performances, some with an accompanist, for evaluation by an outside judge; write three musical compositions adding up to at least five minutes of performance time (again, graded by a judge from outside her school); write a paper called the Musical Investigation comparing two pieces of music from different traditions; and take a 2 1/2 hour essay exam in which she was expected to analyze music she had never heard before based on what she had learned in a year-long music history/theory course.</p>
<p>IB kids learn to WRITE. They have no choice. For example, for higher-level IB history (Europe), the IB test consisted of FIVE HOURS of essays, spread over a two-day period. During the course, students also had to write a 2,000-word paper comparing detailed aspects of two scholarly books on a specific history topic. Their grades on this assignment (I can't remember whether it was an Internal Assessment or External Assessment) contributed to their overall IB exam score.</p>
<p>IB kids learn to comply with complicated requirements. The alphabet soup (IAs, EAs, TOK, EE, CAS) that psychgirl talks about in her excellent summary of IB involves a seemingly endless series of rules, restrictions, paperwork, and deadlines. If you don't handle this stuff properly, you don't get the diploma. At my daughter's school, it is almost unheard of for anyone to fail to earn the IB diploma because he or she did not get adequate scores on the IB tests. But every year, a few people fail to get the diploma because they didn't complete one of the alphabet-soup diploma components or because they didn't turn something in on time. Learning to cope with this sort of thing is good preparation for both college and the real world.</p>
<p>IB kids have to do serious work in their worst subjects as well as their best subjects. They can't drop their foreign language after level 3. They can't take "regular" English and "honors" everything else because they hate literature. They have to be reasonably serious in six different fields. There is usually some choice within the program -- for example, at my daughter's school, two sciences (physics and biology) are offered higher level and two (environmental science and chemistry) are offered standard level, so the "I love science" people and the "I hate science" people each have reasonable options. But everybody has to take some science, as well as math at least through differential calculus, as well as foreign language at least through level 5, plus English, history, and an elective. And of course, on top of that, they have to take other stuff to complete the state graduation requirements (such as technology education, fine arts, and health). </p>
<p>Compared to IB, college is a piece of cake. Every year, recent alumni return to my daughter's high school and tell them this. I'm waiting to hear whether she agrees.</p>
<p>Marian,
That was an incredible post. You hit the nail on the head. DS2 has learned the hard way that IB requires competence across ALL disciplines. On the other hand, he learned so much from his experience in math that will get him through the next three years.</p>
<p>You've also confirmed my sense that DS2 really should take corresponding APs whenever possible. Did most kids take AP Euro senior year? I also have the sense that by the time kids get through junior year IB English, as long as they've read the prerequisite books for the exam, they are competent to take both AP Lang/Comp and AP Lit.</p>
<p>My S just graduated with an IB schedule as well, and I agree totally with Marian's excellent assessment. The work is very difficult, very time consuming, and has to be accomplished in 6 subjects. It made me incredibly frustrated how many colleges seemed to have zero understanding of how much more difficult IB is than AP.
I would say your choice would depend on your goals. If you want to enter college with alot of credit from your high school program - AP is probably your choice. If you want to truly take the most rigorous curriculum available in our country - and have the preparation it will give you - at the risk of not having so much credit -- then IB might be more to your liking.
The comments made on this thread have been more great information than I found on the IBO website. Good luck!</p>
<p>Counting Down, some kids take AP Euro, usually as juniors. My daughter did not bother with that one because it requires some extra preparation and she was busy with other things at the time. She actually took fewer AP tests than the kids in her program typically take (she took 8 in all, 4 of which were in non-IB subjects). But for her, that was plenty, and she got 5s on 7 out of 8, with a 4 on the other.</p>
<p>English is my daughter's weakness, so she didn't take any AP English exams as an 11th grader because she didn't want college admissions officers to see the scores. She took the AP English Language test as a senior because she knew that her college would exempt her from one of the two semesters of freshman writing on the basis of a 5 on either AP English exam, and English Language is easier than English Literature. (And at that point, she had nothing to lose.) The college would also exempt her on the basis of a 7 on the IB HL English exam, but she knew that she had more chances of growing horns and a tail than getting a 7 in English. She took the AP test cold, with no preparation, and got her 5 and her exemption. By the time you're a senior in a good IB program, AP tests are no big deal.</p>
<p>DS2 will take APs in Spanish and Calc AB junior year along with the SLs, because he knows those are his only hope of getting college credit... </p>
<p>I know some juniors who took AP Comp and AP Lit junior year, so I figured that they were prepared to a fare-thee-well for anything that's thrown at them! DS2's experience in 9th grade pre-IB English mirrored his older brother's experience in AP Lang, in intensity and quality of work expected.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know some juniors who took AP Comp and AP Lit junior year, so I figured that they were prepared to a fare-thee-well for anything that's thrown at them!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They may be prepared, but English is not everyone's strong point. My daughter is more of a quantitative person (she thought BC Calculus was easy and took AP Economics voluntarily as an elective on top of the IB program, but she sweated through every English paper for four years). It takes all kinds.</p>
<p>My son's school ran both IB and AP.<br>
My son was IB and he greatly benefited from it not just in learning (great learning experience) but also in advance credit- but then he attends McGill, a Canadian University quite adept at recognizing IB credits.
Be careful of what IB credits US schools will accept-they place the bar very high on this. Some US schools are very friendly toward IB but others still don't have a clue.
Here is what my son did. He was an IB Diploma student at HS but also took the AP exams on his own and in this way achieved both goals. The US schools he applied to, if not fully cognizant of IB , accepted his AP credits, the foreign schools he applied to accepted his IB credits.</p>