<p>Our high school principal is advocating dropping our IB program saying it is "too expensive". She prefers to spend money on AP classes and on a program called AVID. </p>
<p>I went to the AVID website and discovered this is how they describe the typical student in the program:</p>
<p>AVID targets students in the academic middle - B, C, and even D students - who have the desire to go to college and the willingness to work hard. These are students who are capable of completing rigorous curriculum but are falling short of their potential. Typically, they will be the first in their families to attend college, and many are from low-income or minority families. AVID pulls these students out of their unchallenging courses and puts them on the college track: acceleration instead of remediation</p>
<p>Here's my problem with this idea: our HS is 80% Caucasian and 12% Asian. Drop out rate is 2.5% (state's is 5.1%). We have less free and reduced lunch students than is typical in much of the state -- and every year we have kids that go from our IB program to Ivy League, MIT, etc. </p>
<p>I am not sure that AVID is the right program for our HS. A lot of our students have been closely nurtured since babyhood. We have our share of helicopter parents (The Apache Class, not the teeny Bell model!). </p>
<p>I am afraid that our well meaning principal is laying out the red carpet for a small section of the school (we definitely do have kids with financial and home life challenges) -- and the many kids who are go getters will be left . . . with not much to fit their needs. </p>
<p>Any other families have AVID in their schools? Is it working well? Does it well serve everyone? </p>
<p>Is your IB program open access, course by course, or do students need to apply and then sign up to do the full diploma? </p>
<p>There are a lot of schools where the top chunk of kids do really well and have lots of opportunities, but where the middle chunk of kids doesn’t get encouraged to take challenging classes, and doesn’t get much academic and study skills support even if they do. The College Board has been strongly encouraging schools to expand the AP program to more students, and quite a lot of foundation funding is supporting extension of these kinds of classes to a wider variety of students. AVID has been pretty successful in San Diego at preparing kids – often low income, but sometimes just low performing students – for success in college, and some UC campuses have preferential enrollment policies for students that come out of AVID. Depending on where you’re living, that might be one of the advantages.</p>
<p>It is reasonable to ask your principal, “Why AVID?” and “Why AP instead of IB?” “Why do you expect there to be savings?” “Are there other schools that have made this switch with similar populations, and how have students done who were previously in the IB program after such a switch?” And finally, both AVID and AP require an investment in training. Where is that money going to come from? How will teachers be assigned?</p>
<p>Our high school offered both IB and AP courses. Many families believe that students graduating with strong AP scores are more likely to get college credit or course waivers than are students who have taken IB tests, particularly the SL exams, and at least at our state’s public institutions that would seem to be accurate. YMMV.</p>
<p>Seconding arabrab here. The principal may well be looking at the student body and trying to provide more opportunities for students who aren’t at the very top.</p>
<p>Happykid’s HS has open enrollment for both honors and AP in addition to on-level courses. The result is that B, C, and yes indeed D students are continually pushed up. Sort of a home grown AVID if you will. From the outside, it can look like everyone from the lunch ladies and maintenance staff on up are constantly patrolling the halls for one last academic laggard. When she was in middle school, I never would have imagined that Happykid would take any honors classes, let alone the three AP courses that she will graduate with. For students who otherwise might be lured to one of the school district’s IB magnets, there are two selective admission AP heavy programs that begin in 9th grade (one more humanities heavy, one more science heavy). Even with those formally in place, top students often don’t bother to apply (or drop out after a year), preferring to design their own course sequences. I’ve yet to hear any complaint about lack of challenge or rigor.</p>
<p>This is only second-hand knowledge, but I know a girl who went through AVID, and she raves about it all the time- her dream is to give back to the program by becoming a teacher and teaching History/tutoring with AVID. She’s gone to some of the AVID presentations and told me about the stories they tell (she’s hoping they’ll select hers, which is a standard ‘she was depressed and doing poorly in school, but through AVID she made friends, joined clubs, and raised her grades remarkably high, and is now going to be going to a top LAC’) - some of them are really outstanding/not the norm, such as the one girl who lost her family to Hurricane Katrina, but was fostered and placed in AVID, and says she gained an AVID family. </p>
<p>from what I understand, AVID means the teachers will be able to give great recs after four years, the students join a variety of clubs, and it can really help them- but that’s mainly what I know from a current AVID senior.</p>
<p>I’m not sure why AVID would be bad… clearly if the students succeed in AVID they were intelligent to begin with, and there’s no reason why the ‘go-getters’ can’t join in. Not only that, I think the IB program while impressive, isn’t really any more important than APs, and it seems like the go-getters do fine without extra help. I don’t see why you see it as a selective red-carpet. It looks to me like they’re just adding on more carpeting.</p>
<p>at our school AP and AVID go hand in hand. AVID students are encouraged to take AP courses as well as higher level math and sciences (we only offer 5 APs and no honors because we are such a small school) </p>
<p>AVID is not intended to serve everyone anymore than IB is. It seems to me that by keeping AVID and AP your school would be serving a larger portion of the student population then they would by offering Both AP and IB and dropping AVID. </p>
<p>AVID helps students achieve in AP by providing support a structure for tutoring that the student may lack at home. You know those posts on CC where parents say somethinging like “Thank goodness for CC! What do those kids do whose parents aren’t as informed?” Well AVID helps bridge the gap. </p>
<p>To offer IB and AP and cut AVID is to offer two programs already focused on high achieving kids and withdraw support from kids in the middle who may have only been able to achieve their college goals with the support the AVID program provides.</p>
<p>Thanks for your responses. It will be either IB or AP – no way our school can afford both. Our IB courses are “open” and many students choose to take one or two of the IB classes. </p>
<p>There is a terminology weirdness. A student who is taking, say, IB French, Social Studies and English would be considered “Half IB” – which kinda has a slacker sound to it. The same kid in an AP program could proudly state “I’m taking THREE AP courses” and sound like a real go getter. </p>
<p>Because taking “partial IB” doesn’t sound like much and taking Full IB is an awful lot (it is a tremendous amount of work) I do think we have some kids that shy away from any portion of the program. It’s not that they aren’t capable – it just doesn’t “sound” that great. I suspect more students would participate if we moved to AP courses. </p>
<p>There is no “cut AVID” because AVID is not at our school at all currently. </p>
<p>Part of my problem, I know, is that I see some of the social skill building described in AVID as things I think good parents should be doing. I am very aware that there are many communities where that doesn’t happen – but our community does seem to have strong parental involvement (but that may be the parents I know!).</p>
<p>What I don’t know is how many of our 400+ senior students are currently college bound. We do have a strong contingent that attends the Community College in junior/senior years to earn either an AA or to get technical training. I would count those kids as “college bound” but I could also see some that might not if the student chose to quit after the technical training is finished. </p>
<p>I’d love to hear from parents/students of a middle class high school that has AVID in it. Does it do much for you?</p>
<p>Olymom – I would suspect that as with every other program offered in a high school environment, the quality of the offering is highly school dependent. There are schools in upper middle class areas with AVID that have very strong programs, and there are schools in similar socioeconomic situations that have weak implementations. I’m not sure you’ll be able to tell that in advance, except that (as always) a lot depends on the principal and the AVID coordinator. Is the principal a get-it-done kind of person, or a talk-about-it kind of person? Has the principal been able to get people to work together productively on other problems, or does he explain that his hands are tied with district policy? How will the AVID coordinator be selected? How will the position be funded? How will the training be funded? Will the school schedule need to be adjusted to incorporate AVID? Are there AVID programs in adjacent high schools or in nearby districts? Have they done well? Has your principal met with the organizers of successful programs to learn from them? These are all the kinds of questions we ask when we give grant funding to support these kinds of initiatives, and it is remarkable how often it is clear that the principals haven’t thought through many of these issues. (Those aren’t the ones we fund.)</p>
<p>Just because one school with AVID has fabulous results doesn’t mean that other schools will automatically have them. It isn’t the name of the program that’s important, it’s the implementation.</p>
<p>Ah, wise words! The other major HS in our district has AVID and that principal is all about sharing – so there is a good footprint in place to copy. </p>
<p>Our principal is experienced and hard working. But our state has a ton of new requirements for HS and there is constant tinkering with existing requirements. I’d also say that our state school board and legislators are famous for dreaming big, writing rules and then not funding the implementation costs. </p>
<p>We already have a program called Navigation 101. I am not sure if the AVID would be on top of or instead of the Navigation classes. </p>
<p>It’s crazy. We have something like 8 bell schedules. I’m amazed that the staff and students know which way is up between the requirements, the tests, the options and the ever changing daily schedule.</p>
<p>AVID at our school is meant to be a support for kids who would be first gen college attendees. They get encouragement to take college prep classes, study skills lessons, discussions about colleges, advice on when and what tests to take, and more from teacher mentors. </p>
<p>AP does a good job of serving go-getters.</p>
<p>The underserved class at our school are the middle of the road kids…If you don’t take the AP section of a subject, the instruction can be uneven. These kids are better served by the AP program rather than the IB program since they can pick and choose which classes to do AP.</p>
<p>If very few people are taking the full IB program and getting the diploma, then I can’t really see much point in keeping it vs. AP. IB’s real value is in its integrated approach, and if students aren’t getting that, they might be better served by just taking AP anyway.</p>
<p>I am to the point that I think more kids would be served if our school moved from IB to AP (wish we were one of those lucky schools that offers both!). </p>
<p>My bigger concern is the school spending thousands on AVID if it is not a good fit for our school community.</p>
<p>D’s high school, one of the best in the state, had 30% of the kids taking either a heavy IB load or a heavy AP load, many of whom go on to highly selective or very selective colleges. Of the remaining 70%, I’d guess that half would not have been suited, interested, or persuadable to take a more challenging courseload. But that middle third of kids could have taken on much more challenge with enough support and guidance – which they didn’t get. (As with a lot of schools, excellent students get lots of attention, poor students get lots of attention, and the B/C students get ignored unless they have disciplinary problems.) Those B/C students are the ones AVID is out there to support. While they have often come from less well off families, there are certainly AVID programs in a number of middle class and upper middle class schools, serving just this population. Could that be the population your principal is interested in challenging?</p>
<p>I think I need to learn more. For instance, I don’t know how many of our seniors are college bound or have a solid alternative plan (tech training, military. . . ). I suspect that it is a sizable proportion but I do not know for sure. I do know we have had kids in extreme need (homeless but still attending school – heartbreaking and amazing) – but my impression is that is a very few in our large school. </p>
<p>I am wary because we used to have honors courses for freshmen and sophomores. That option was taken away and a 0ne-size-for-everyone freshman year was installed to “make everyone feel welcome.” That sort of thinking makes me crazy. No one would ever tell the varsity football coach that he had to take everyone who tried out for the team and to play every player every game (although I do think that is a good thing for peewee soccer!). I believe there are many ways to have a talent – and there ought to be paths to help everyone soar – that includes the smart kids who are dying of boredom! </p>
<p>So killing off IB and replacing it with AVID makes me nervous. The devil is in the details. If there is AP (a lot of AP) and AVID works for the middle income kids that make up 90% of our school, then fine. But if all the dollars are drained from the advanced courses and poured into our small struggling groups . . . that’s a whole 'nuther deal.</p>
<p>Our school sends a senior survey out to all seniors in the class and works hard to get an answer back from each one. Many schools collect this data and use it on their “school profile” that is sent by the GCs with the GC recommendations for college. Every year is a little different, but the percentage of kids going directly from our high school to a 4 year college is pretty steady each year. You might check your school profile.</p>
<p>Olymon – I share your concern. We had a school superintendent twenty years ago who dictated heterogenous grouping as the rule of the district in middle school – no honors classes, no accelerated classes – and worse yet, an incredible notion that teachers should teach out of their subject areas so that we could all be “a shared community of learners.” So social studies teachers should teach math, and science teachers could teach English,… In revolt, we got the IB program started at the high school under the then very unusual condition that IB (and pre-IB) classes be open to any interested student, and a very strong charter school was started to preserve academic challenge for middle school students. For us, there was definitely strength in numbers – we had a tremendous number of parents come to school board meetings, sign petitions, and lobby school board members to make sure that this option was available, and we had state law to back us up. Under the bright lights there wasn’t nearly the willingness to pooh-pooh the hundreds of parents who showed up. It was ugly, but we got the programs. </p>
<p>I see good and valuable things from both AP and IB, but it is expensive for a school to have both. Some schools have single courses intended to prepare students for either, but it doesn’t necessarily work well given that the curricular emphasis is often different. But both IB and AP require training for teachers, expensive textbooks, and teachers who are fully capable of doing a good job. Finding out more about how the other school you mentioned has implemented the AP program, and how that’s worked with AVID might be helpful.</p>
<p>I just learned that the other school in the county is about to start AVID – I had been given the impressiont they already had it and it was great for them. That, I learned last night is not the case. The school will spend $50,000 over two years to begin the program and $3,500 a year after that. </p>
<p>We already have in place a “Navigation” class that meets once a month that, to me, covers the same material. I asked my son last night at dinner if he had gotten anything out of the Navigation classes (he’s a senior and has been required to do this class for at least the last two years). His response: “There was an online survey that we did that was interesting. Otherwise, no. It’s all stuff that college bound kids do already.” </p>
<p>This is what concerns me! The kids from strong families that value education get to spend much of their school life repeating activities that have no meaning to them – rather than moving on to information and skill building that is appropriate to where they are.</p>
<p>Okay, the Navigation class sounds both useless and NOTHING like AVID. I wouldn’t use it as the measure of whether AVID would be useful.</p>
<p>Generally families choose (independently or with encouragement) to sign up for AVID. I’m unfamiliar with kids being forced into it. (Not saying it doesn’t happen, just that I haven’t read about it in any proposals.)</p>
<p>If it isn’t a choice, I’d also argue against it. If it is a choice, then kids like your son probably don’t need to sign up.</p>
<p>AVID’s strength is is providing a sustained, ongoing resource to support kids in successful completion of challenging academic classes and eventually application to colleges. Kids that don’t need that support (or already get it at home) probably shouldn’t do it. </p>
<p>Unless all kids are forced to go the AVID route, I’m not sure what having AVID at a school would do in terms of diminishing the high school experience for excellent students? Having AP classes rather than IB classes is far from the end of excellence in education, and, having seen the budgets at a school that offers both, the cost of the IB program was substantially higher than the cost of the AP program to the point that families of IB or Pre-IB students were strongly encouraged to make a $50 donation per IB or pre-IB course each year in addition to test fees.</p>
<p>olymom: my son is graduating this year from a school (so california) which has AVID and AP. his school is located in a ‘middle class’ area, and the majority of students are white. AVID and AP coexist quite well at this school, and ensure that every demographic is well-served (or served as well as possible under challenging fiscal conditions). </p>
<p>your objection to AVID seems to reek of classism. you started your original post stating that the school is 80% white, and 12 percent asian. does that mean that other students (the remaining 8%) should not be served? and of those asian and white students, how do you know that there isn’t a good portion of them who could benefit from AVID support?</p>
<p>Whoa, not at all! My point is exactly that EVERYONE should be served. We already had a dismantling of freshman honors because that was seen as “elitist” – never mind that it was a path that was open to all students to choose. </p>
<p>I went to the AVID website and their material makes it sound like their strength is getting students to college who are from families that have never had a member attend college. I am ALL for that – but that doesn’t describe our school (or, at least I don’t think so). So do we spend lots and lots and lots of bucks to serve 8% of the kids? Even that is ok as long as we don’t slam the door shut on anyone. </p>
<p>I am a fan of “Genius Denied” by the Davidsons. They document how hard it is for a bright kid (of either gender and any ethnic background) if they are forced to go slow. We personally know one kid who is a brilliant high school dropout. Our school made him nuts. It wasn’t understanding material – it was complying with all the minutiae and rules that he couldn’t tolerate. My district has added six additional graduation requirements in recent years – every one of them featuring compliance over knowledge. </p>
<p>So I am very wary of big bucks spent if it “dumbs down” what we have. You don’t advance far if you rise by stepping on the necks of others.</p>
<p>How sad that I can’t broach a topic without being accused of “classism” (a nicer word for “Racism”?). I am truly concerned about what is being proposed and I come here to LEARN what others have experienced.</p>