<p>Is it true that even higher level IB physics doesn't require calculus?</p>
<p>The IB Program is more prestigious, demanding and universal than any AP courses you may take. viva<em>sweet</em>love, there is no way that taking IB would bring down the rigor of your academic experience...the opposite! Any college will see it that way too.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, "The international baccalaureate was developed after World War II to provide diplomats' children with a credential that would demand RESPECT across borders. Private schools in the U.S. have long used international baccalaureate, which can earn college credit, as a more STRINGENT form of the Advanced Placement courses and to prepare students for college."</p>
<p>BTW, that 's just an excerpt from an article published monday in the Wall Street Journal.</p>
<p>I took 7 AP courses in addition to conservatory band...I'd say thats pretty demanding and colleges will see it (well, saw it, since I'm in college) the same way. I also do music and other community service projects on the side. IB is wonderful in the sense that it offers an all encompassing program, but I just wanted more options. My school doesn't offer the wide variety of IB courses that others do and I find I could get more with AP. For example, SL math for me would have included repeating a year. SL Science would be less challenging than AP Bio or AP Computer Science. I wanted to be able to take European history and Macro and micro economics and statistics and a bunch of other courses that weren't available in IB (at my school). Somewhere along the line, I would have had to sacrifice certain HLs because you're just not allowed to do everything HL.</p>
<p>IB in general is extremely challenging and overall a wonderful program, I'm definitely not contesting that. I'm just trying to make the point that if designed correctly (given that the school has appropriate course selection) AP can also be just as challenging.</p>
<p>I'm an IB student myself v<em>s</em>l, but though I accede to most of your points (aka if the school is poor in terms of IB courses, go with AP) I strongly disagree with your saying that it would be less challenging not to take all HLs. It seems that you underestimate how demanding HLs are. All in all, if you haven't experienced it you will never know. If you truly wanted to challenge urself at IB you would go with 4 HLs and Further Math. If u managed to get a top grade (7) at Further math..HA..lets just say MIT would want you like crazy!</p>
<p>I don't get the impression that the Further Math curriculum is particularly advanced.</p>
<p>I don't get it. From what information do you get the impression that Further Math is not particularly advanced? It's the most advanced math course there is. You can get the top grade if you score higher than 60%, which is evident of the fact that it is impossibly hard. What gives you a different impression? Please elaborate.</p>
<p>Just to chip in...and as a warning I didn't read this thread in detail:</p>
<p>IB as a curriculum does a lot more than teach you information. It teaches you how to think critically, analyze, and come to your own solutions/develop your own opinions. I have never taken an AP class so I can't say anything about them.</p>
<p>However, I took IB Math HL, and this is what I covered:
Calc 1, Calc 2 (got Uni credit) then everything that was on my first exam in Calc 3, everything that was on my first exam in Diff Eq, my entire 300 level Stats class, and also how to write proper proofs using induction etc.</p>
<p>That's in two years....so IB Math is definitely no joke.</p>
<p>And I think many IB students can take an AP test in the subject and get a 4 or a 5 without extra studying (as many have done).</p>
<p>I have experienced HLs. I am taking an IB HL French course in addition my APs this year. Also, the math course I took my junior year doubled as an HL course (AP Calculus). I'm not sure what you mean by Further Math? I don't think my school offers it. Is it the same as HL math? </p>
<p>akx06, IB HL math is definitely challenging...I sympathize with my friends.</p>
<p>Think of the entire curriculum of HL plus tons and tons of other stuff, of course of university level. Also bear in mind that it's got the lowest percentage in all IB courses along with IB psychology, and it's offered only at SL!!!!!! The reason, it's too hard for somebody to take at HL, too demanding even when it is SL, as it includes the HL of IB math..</p>
<p>I heard that IB HL Math is the equivalent to doing AP+BC Calc in one year.</p>
<p>Some schools teach BC Calculus as a one year course, without a separate year of AB just like a college would.</p>
<p>Hi, akx06, what college do you attend?</p>
<p>tokenadult,
At DS2's IB program, kids aren't allowed to take MV/DiffEq before junior year, and then they take a supervised online independent study senior year, though for most kids in that program, they take an MV class senior year and study the other topics separately. Next year they are actually offering a HL Math class. What I don't get is that Math SL (which DS2 will take junior year)includes statistics, but the school won't let them take AP Stat til senior year...for a kid who needs direct instruction in math, this is a disaster waiting to happen. So once again, we'll be after-schooling!</p>
<p>There is a reason DS1 never considered applying to IB...between the math and CS, there was no place for him. Not intended as a slam to IBers, but for some kids who are highly focused in a specific area, IB may not be the best route. My DS2 is a generalist and strong in humanities, and for him IB is ideal.</p>
<p>tokenadult: You keep making all these slick statements about how you've heard that IB Math is not as advanced as AP math. How about backing it up?</p>
<p>Now, I understand that the IBO website does a bad job of presenting syllabuses, but still. You've made tons of statements that are unhelpful and unfounded.</p>
<p>As to a direct comparison: I looked through the calculus sayllabuses you posted. In IB Math HL, we covered every single topic in AP Calculus AB - in the 6 months of a 2 year course that are used to cover calculus. We covered everything in BC except the topics related to approximations and Taylor series type stuff.</p>
<p>That which we didn't cover (the aforementioned Taylor series topics and so forth) can be covered in an option called Analysis and Approximation - as for my school, we did the Discrete Mathematics option, which includes diverse topics and proofs from Number Theory as well as a significant chunk of Graph Theory.</p>
<p>I failed to find the official IB syllabus online, but I'll summarize what IB HL includes:</p>
<p>Algebra (including sequences and series, complex numbers including de Moivre's theorem, nth roots of unity and so forth, solutions of polynomial equations, logarithms, the binomial theorem and applications, counting principles - permutations and combinations)
Functions and Equations (which more or less include a bunch of precalc type stuff, asymptotes, transformations, and so forth)
Circular Functions and Trigonometry(more precalc basically)
Matrices
Vectors
Statistics and Probability
Calculus (this is everything in Calc AB, and much of what is extra in Calc BC)</p>
<p>and then the options:</p>
<p>Statistics (covers much of AP stats)
Sets, Relations and Groups
Discrete Mathematics (Number Theory and Graph Theory)
Analysis and Approximation (this covers everything that is additional in Calc BC, and a little more)
Euclidean Geometry and Conic Sections</p>
<p>So you see, it is entirely possible to in one course (HL Math), take everything available in the AP and much more. I think it's a little unfortunate that you dismissively relegated IB math (HL is the only one talked about here because the lower ones AREN'T at as high a level as the AP) to being not as good as AP math. It's more comprehensive, harder, and better. Deal.</p>
<p>As to 3 other specific things you mentioned that I feel need to be addressed directly:</p>
<p>1) The IB won't allow you to take courses for the Diploma before Grade 11. Is that restrictive? Yes. Is it bad? I don't think so, because a huge part of the IB's educational philosophy has to do with a cohesive educational program.</p>
<p>2) The IB is more restrictive in course choice and in needing actual in-class presence to take this. Is that bad? Again, I don't think so. The IB follows from an educational philosophy of balanced, cohesive course offerings, rather than the salad bar type educational system in America. I wouldn't slam it; there's a lot of very good things that come from the kind of wide ranging, rigorous education one gets in the IB.</p>
<p>3) Colleges give more credit for lower scores on AP courses, and require IB courses to be HL. You know what this shows? That the IB hasn't penetrated as far into America's colleges' awareness as the AP. I can assure you, a Math HL student with a 7 (highest mark) is as well or better prepared as an AP Calc BC student with a 5. I also think most IB SL courses should be rewarded on par with AP courses, but that may take some time. The fact is, the AP is more recognized in America because it's American. Many schools and colleges are starting to realize the obvious benefits of the IB, but in America the AP still reigns supreme. Not at all so in the rest of the world, for the record.</p>
<hr>
<p>As to my thoughts on this topic in general, I'll link you all to a previous post I made on the subject. It's long, and I don't want to rewrite something similar, and I also don't want to scare you all off by copying it here, so I'll link:</p>
<p>1of42,
I think tokenadult's point (and this was a major issue for one of my kids, too) is that there are kids who are well beyond BC Calc, including all the options, before they ever GET to the official IB math curriculum -- i.e., before 11th grade. I haven't seen an effective way to deal with those kids in IB.</p>
<p>Yes, CountingDown is correct about my main concern. If the IB diploma curriculum is only available to eleventh and twelfth graders, I am NOT impressed by its level of math (nor by its level of science), as I know students of much younger age who are taking postcalculus math courses and correspondingly high level science courses. This is not at all to say that the IB diploma curriculum is bad--I think it is a well thought-out curriculum--but to say that there is nothing better goes too far. The flexibility of the AP curriculum is that it is available to students of all ages, and a la carte, and that makes the AP curriculum useful for students who will be advanced well beyond IB HL level by the time they finish their secondary schooling.</p>
<p>tokenadult: What you are saying is that we should offer IB math to students under grade 11, correct? Well, let me tell you something. Take Harvard and Stanford as examples. Those universities tend to review certain secondary school topics to "get everyone on the same page". IB is doing exactly the same thing. IB reviews important concepts before they go on. It is not necessary to offer IB before grade 10, because the most important mathematics occur after grade 10.</p>
<p>You also forget that IB Diploma is not the only IB program offered. There are middle school programs and elementary school programs (I think these names are right...).</p>
<p>Granted, there are students who go ahead and learn post-calculus stuff before grade 11. HOWEVER, they are minority! The VAST MAJORITY of students follow normal curriculum. I would highly doubt that there will be enough enrollment to open up more advanced math for 1 or 2 math geniuses.</p>
<p>International Baccalaureate (I wonder why nobody uses its official name) Math HL is more demanding than AP Calculus. It takes two years to complete Math HL, but it only takes one year or a semester (in some schools, depending on system) to complete AP Calculus. IB Math HL gets a huge advantage because it is a year longer than AP. Of course, if students play games in each class then there would be no use for that extra year; I highly doubt the teacher will let students slack off.</p>
<p>I enjoy IB because of two aspects of the curriculum:</p>
<p>1) Global Perspective</p>
<p>In APs, almost all the social sciences are related to America ONLY. (I wonder why America = the U.S. Maybe it's due to the influence of Manifest Destiny? America is a continent, not a country. The full name for the U.S. is the United States. Since when have they added a word "America" to the country's name? - Please refer to TIME's reader's opinion. This idea was written by an "American" too.) For example, the U.S. History. International Baccalaureate opens up new horizons for students around the world to explore. It is an international program. In a world of globalization, international perspective as well as dual-language are becoming more and more important. After reading TIME's article on "Education in the 21st Century", which extolled the IB program, I chose to opt for IB instead of AP. </p>
<p>2) Well-Rounded Curriculum</p>
<p>According to many college admission officers, it is better to be versed at all courses instead of at some courses only. IB offers social sciences, first languages , mathematics, second languages, sciences, and maybe the arts. In Advance Placement, you can choose as few APs as you want. If you wish to get an IB Diploma, you MUST take all courses required.</p>
<p>tokenadult, you're determined to hate IB, with unsupported claims. Maybe it's just because you're taking AP and do not want any other program to lose your cool.</p>
<p>tokenadult: Obviously, comparing the IB with university or community college courses taken for credit will be unfavorable; no high school curriculum can possibly hope to match more advanced coursework like that. However, your statement was this:</p>
<p>
IB math is rather a joke.
</p>
<p>followed by a post in which you compare placement for AP Calc BC with IB Math HL. </p>
<p>Don't get me wrong here - I would never argue that the IB curriculum is the be-all-end-all of curricula, and it is somewhat restrictive, as you point out. I think this is for the better, though it will obviously hold back students who are unbelievably excellent and need to move on past high school work to satisfy their interests. But that wasn't what you originally said. You essentially said (or implied, at the least) that AP Calc was more demanding and comprehensive than IB Math HL. That's blatantly not true, so I refuted it. </p>
<p>As for the concerns about the inflexibility of the program, I see exactly where you're coming from. On the other hand, that's always the trade off, between flexibility and cohesiveness. For all its advantages, the AP program has no educational cohesiveness, and while it's great for raw learning the whole educational experience is, as you say, a la carte. With the IB, the inflexibility comes with an extremely cohesive educational philosophy that I believe is superior to that offered by the AP - and the trade off is a lack of flexibility. Whether that trade off is right for any given student must be decided individually.</p>
<p>To sum it up, I have to say that 1of42, iAppler and CountingDown summarized the whole thing greatly, and also there are some huge misconceptions on behalf of tokenadult's side, and some huge fallacies. I have to say that quote was disturbing, unfounded and simply uninformed.</p>
<p>iAppler, the assertion that AP social sciences are from an American perspective is really not accurate. In addition to American History and American Government and Politics, you have European History, World History, Human Geography, and Comparative Government and Politics. There are other social sciences which I haven't listed, but your comment shows that you are not familiar with the extent of the AP curriculum.</p>