<p>Good catch, hsmomstef; thanks for sharing the link.</p>
<p>you're welcome -- if you know of any other links, please post them.</p>
<p>great link hsmomstef...that ought to pinpoint just how demanding the IB program is (not that AP is not demanding...)</p>
<p>"An ideal four-year preparatory program includes four years of English, with extensive practice in writing; four years of math; four years of science: biology, chemistry, physics, and an advanced course in one of these subjects; three years of history, including American and European history; and four years of one foreign language."</p>
<p>From another thread..I believe tokenadult has seen this, and if we compare this statement by Harvard with the link provided above, it is conspicuous that the IB (which as a program is centered around exactly what Harvard mentions above) is more suitable that a loose AP course to some extent. Of course one can create the same level of symmetry at an AP course as well.</p>
<p>I have seen lists of suggested high school courses for preparation for college for some time, and indeed students at a variety of high schools can put together class lists like that. I use some lists like that, modified to fit my children's interests, to design my children's homeschooling program. </p>
<p>I was interested to see, in the link that hsmomstef kindly shared, that worldwide very few IB diploma candidates sit for the Further Mathematics SL test. By contrast, in AP programs "more and more students now take BC Calculus before their senior year. This number has grown from 8818 in 2002 to 13,809 in spring, 2006, an increase of 57% in just four years." </p>
<p><a href="http://www.maa.org/columns/launchings/launchings_05_07.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.maa.org/columns/launchings/launchings_05_07.html</a> </p>
<p>I give the IB program a lot of credit for continuing to support foreign language study in high school. Foreign language courses are dying all over the United States--it is increasingly rare to find any language other than Spanish in United States high schools. (I write this as a Chinese major who took German and Russian in high school in the 1970s.) There are AP foreign language courses, and more this year than ever before. I would like to see high school learners seize the opportunity to challenge themselves in whatever program they participate in. </p>
<p>As the document linked to by hsmomstef points out, one limitation on any high school program is the limited number of high school teachers capable of teaching higher level courses. My advice for young people in the position of the OP of this thread, looking for a good high school program in their town, would be for them to inquire seriously about whether the teachers in Program X and Program Y are well known to challenge their students to reach their highest level of achievement and whether the students in those programs go beyond even what the curriculum requires. (One way to check that is to look at pass rates on the IB or AP tests, but that is not the only way.) A "prep" boarding school (e.g. Exeter or Andover) can provide a solid precollege curriculum even if it designs its own courses without regard to the AP or IB syllabuses. So can a public "magnet" school. And so can an autodidact, with family support and access to library and laboratory resources. It's enough if students make their own local inquiries and line up the best local resources available--college admission officers will not fault students who do as much as local circumstances allow.</p>
<p>I think this thread is no longer about the OP's concern.
Also, the way you are comparing Calculus BC and Further Mathematics is completely erroneous. Essentially, Further Mathematics covers all of the HL curriculum and ALL of the options. For Math HL students, who know exactly how demanding the options are (and as HL we only do one), being further Math student is superb. A 5 for a Further Math student is like a 100% of Math HL (IB people know what I'm talking about, but just in case, the worst you can do and still get a 7 is 75%, and it is virtually impossible to get a 100% on Math HL)</p>
<p>I invite the OP to come back and visit and tell us whether his concerns were answered or not. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In view of your screen name, I'll ask you to kindly show your logical steps there.</p>
<p>People before me have amply substantiated that, namely that IB Further Mathematics is the most rigorous high school program there is with respect to mathematics. Also, I'd advise you to look into the curriculum before making comparisons (you also never showed why your comparison was valid-aka never explained why you compare things unequal in terms of level, or why you consider them to be equal, if you do)</p>
<p>P.S. Nice judging by the name, not by the person there (ad hominem fallacy I believe)</p>
<p>
[quote]
People before me have amply substantiated that, namely that IB Further Mathematics is the most rigorous high school program there is with respect to mathematics.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not so. I can think of an immediate counterexample. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.itcep.umn.edu/about/alumni.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.itcep.umn.edu/about/alumni.php</a> </p>
<p>(the site was having server problems just as I looked up this link, but try it in a while) </p>
<p>For the "most rigorous high school program there is with respect to mathematics," I might nominate the programs of </p>
<p>Phillips Exeter Academy </p>
<p>or </p>
<p>Montgomery Blair High School </p>
<p>or any of several other programs in the United States, and looking to international examples I'd want to look at the programs at </p>
<p>Chien-kuo High School or Taipei First Girls' High School in Taiwan, </p>
<p>and </p>
<p>the Hua Loo-keng School or other "key" schools in China. </p>
<p>There are a lot of great high school programs for mathematics that go well beyond the curriculum offered to the FEW IB diploma candidates who take Further Mathematics Standard Level. </p>
<p>"May 2006 Results 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
% achieving grade 17 18 17 19 11 17 1" </p>
<p>"It should be noted that very few schools worldwide offer Further Mathematics (in May 2006 there were 89 candidates worldwide)." </p>
<p>(page 39) </p>
<p>I remind readers of this thread that the thread was posted in the Harvard Forum rather than in the High School Life Forum. Perhaps that establishes some context for the OP's concern about comparison of programs. Harvard's admission process for aspiring math majors includes active involvement of mathematics department faculty in evaluating candidates. One thing I know FOR SURE from local admission results is that Harvard doesn't have a blanket rule of strictly preferring IB diploma candidates to Siemens AP scholars or to AP national scholars. Through my son's involvement in our state's all-state math team, I am acquainted with a lot of interesting young people in high school classes of 2006 and 2007, some of whom attended IB high schools and some of whom attended AP high schools. Last year's admission results and this year's admission results to Harvard and Ivy-peer colleges do not show a systematic preference for IB diploma candidates at the top colleges. Some IB diploma candidates get into some of those colleges, and some do not. Plenty of AP scholars get in too. </p>
<p>I am also puzzled by the ASSUMPTION that I haven't checked the syllabuses for each kind of math course, and the actual textbooks, because in fact I have. I have examined an IB math textbook used in the local high school with the oldest IB program in my state, and thus I know what level of math IB math students are studying. I have mentioned that one great advantage AP programs have over IB for math placement is the choice of taking advanced AP courses at a considerably younger age than IB diploma courses, which allows schools with AP programs to offer a physics course that presupposes knowledge of calculus.</p>
<p>a) I meant people who posted before me.
b) The reason why there were only 89 candidates is because of the rigor of the course, not because of the limitation of it. Any teacher who teaches math HL can teach further.
c) Nobody mentioned that Harvard likes IB candidates rather than AP candidates, specifically because of the program, in this thread.
d) If you have indeed checked the syllabus and looked at past papers that indicate just how rigorous IB further mathematics is, then why do you insist on comparing it to AP calculus, especially when people before me who have experienced both can say with confidence that IB math is harder than AP math.</p>
<p>d) because, again, people who reach AP calculus by eighth grade age (and I know several examples of those, in various places) can go well beyond anything offered in the very few IB schools that have Further Math candidates by the time they finish their secondary schooling. As long as the IB diploma program is tied to the last two years of secondary schooling, advanced math (and science) students will have to look elsewhere to find their maximum academic challenge in their local context. </p>
<p>After edit: </p>
<p>Adding a link about the middle-level math achievement scores in various countries, which may influence how advanced IB math looks to observers from different countries. </p>
<p>Clearly you don't get what I am saying. We are comparing AP and IB on this thread, and since you are so eager to tie anything that is said to the OP, bear in mind that the thread has to do with AP and IB, not other programs. I understand, and exhort all who can go to college level math prior to college, to do so. However, this is not about college programs, this is about high school programs. </p>
<p>I have always accompanied my statements such as "Further mathematics is the most demanding course you can find" with "at high school level".</p>
<p>Damn guys, I didn't think you were still arguing this thread that I started...</p>
<p>To answer tokenadult's question, I feel like my question was partially answered, but my question itself was flawed. I should've known before hand that this would turn into a debate as to which is better. I realize in my original post, I said that my friend and I argued which is better/harder. But I asked which is of higher level, which I feel really hasn't been answered here and I do not think there really is an answer to that question. And to be honest, most schools in the US do not offer IB (due to how expensive it is, hire extra teachers, etc.). Even most private schools I have heard of do not offer IB. I think we can agree that each program has its benefits, each its shortcomings. The argument I see now could be similar to one in which undergrads at Harvard and undergrads at Yale try to debate as to which school is better.</p>
<p>I think in the end, it matters what you make out of what you have...Did you take the most rigorous curriculum available in your school? Even if your school only offered 5 AP classes or 30 AP/IB classes. After all, not everyone (actually most people aren't) is born on a silver platter. The middle class is basically the mass in the US population. Middle class people in general cannot afford to send their kids to elite schools that offer IB or other "advanced" programs. Most are forced to go to their local high schools and make use of what programs ARE offered there, rather than seek programs outside.</p>
<p>It seems across the board COLLEGES look at the IB program as being more challenging but this does not take away in any way from an AP class. They feel the IB courses are true "college level courses" and the countless papers due and the end of the two year program which culminates in a huge exam is quite intense. From all I have read and from all my college visits I have gathered this info. FYI.</p>
<p>
[quote]
From all I have read and from all my college visits I have gathered this info.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Just to ask a friendly informational question, what have you read about this and which colleges have you visited?</p>
<p>token -- have you seen these links regarding IB Math? I thought I would pass them along -- </p>
<p><a href="http://data.fldoe.org/crscode/default.cfm?level=912&category=Mathematics%5B/url%5D">http://data.fldoe.org/crscode/default.cfm?level=912&category=Mathematics</a> (click on the PDF for the individual class descriptions)</p>
<p>I asked my math teacher, and he said that the difference between HL and further math is that essentially, a further maths student takes TWO math courses, cuz he has to cover ALL of the IB options..which is overwhelming, considering that admittedly Paper 3 (one option only out of the, i dunno, i think 7 options?) is the hardest IB math paper...</p>
<p>Do you want a life?</p>
<p>Yes?</p>
<p>Don't take IB.</p>
<p>[Currently being screwed over by: Predicted, SDS, Phys + Chem + Math HL, TOK essay B, Extended Essay Draft 2, 300 hours worth of CAS journals, rambling Green & Damji textbooks, lack of adaptability between provincial and IB curriculum, causing exam cancellations and mass confusion, a long-ass English reading list....]</p>
<p>hmm. i'm taking IB at my school, and AP courses are part of the curriculum. most of the IB courses actually take place senior year. for example, i took AP Calculus BC as a junior and i'll be taking IB higher level math as a senior... so yeah. and IB includes other things too... we have to take a theory of knowledge class, complete 150 hours of various activities, write an extended essay, etc.</p>
<p>"I was just at the Exploring College Options program at my town, and none of the college admission officers present said that IB is necessarily better than AP. (Remember, the thread title here is "IB v. AP.") A question from the audience got the admission officers talking about students who take genuine college courses for high school credit while still in high school, which is a pretty common choice here. IB is good, and AP was mentioned a lot by the admission officers, but the common advice is to challenge yourself academically, whatever the brand name of the program. Attending an IB program is not going to be a guarantee of admission, in much the same way that there is no particular score on the SAT I that guarantees admission.</p>
<p>P.S. Both the Stanford admission officer, in the main general Q and A session yesterday, and the Harvard admission officer, in Q and A specific to Harvard, mentioned that both "well rounded" and "well lopsided" students can be admitted. That's one more reason why there isn't any systematic reason to favor taking an IB program over taking several thoughtfully chosen AP courses while in high school. In general, the admission officers advised doing the activities the learner enjoys and can be passionate about and not trying to do everything in high school to please college admission officers." - tokenadult</p>
<p>I am speaking only on behalf of my experience and peers, and from my experience and knowledge I completely agree with what Tokenadult says here. </p>
<p>The high school I was enrolled in has a great academic reputation and supports the full IB curriculum as well as some APs. When the IB program began at the school some years ago, students who earned diplomas were also admitted to some of the nation's best universities. However, in the most recent years, there seems to have been a decline in college interest for full IB candidates. My peers who were anticipating their IB diploma were facing a greater deal of rejection from colleges than former graduates of that school. I remember from my freshmen/sophomore year counselors telling us that the state university (University of Washington; it has since like many other schools have implemented a 'holistic' admissions approach) was totally interested in admitting IB students. Well, when the college admissions process began for the upper classmen at the time, the results were actually very mixed. Many IB students were accepted. Many IB students were rejected, and foremost, many students not entirely or at all involved in the IB program were also admitted or rejected seemingly at the same rate. The distinction between IB and AP in terms of college preference I would say for the most part, is not completely cut-and-dry. In comparison, to full-IB, I also have good friends that did only APs since IB was not available to them and were also admitted to some of the most prestigious universities including schools such as Northwestern, Yale, and Vanderbilt.</p>
<p>My best advice for anyone deciding whether to enroll in IB or AP is that they figure out what will cater their style the best. If you can accommodate the IB curriculum then that is a possible choice. Otherwise, if you need a more flexible curriculum AP may be the way to go. If you want to go to a school outside of the US, take IB. If not, take AP since you will probably be more likely to have your course credited at an American institution as opposed to IB. If you desire to take IB as elective credits, you may not want to test for certification and just get IB on your transcript through an alternative test because many American institutions will not give credit for the course especially SL courses.</p>
<p>*I will not argue that the difficulty of IB is higher than AP, vice versa because I believe that depends on what your school prioritizes. Some schools will have a greater academic program with an AP core than another school with a weaker IB program. Or IB at another school will be much easier than another school. Moreover, just because IB requires that a specific student agenda be fulfilled (CAS hours, Extended Essay) and AP does not - this does not mean that you are in no position when enrolled in AP to challenge and accomplish things OUTSIDE of AP. You can still do a million hours of community service. You can still do internships during your summer. You can still be a merit scholar, etc.</p>
<p>Lastly, I can't speak for anyone else in terms of their ambitions, but I would really like to stress that you do what you feel is right for you and not worry a great deal about what people think is best for you. The most successful people in the long-run (in terms of college admissions and graduate studies) that I know had the confidence in their ability to accomplish what they believed was necessary even if it was not the most popular way to go about it.</p>
<p>Good luck for anyone who feels they need it!</p>
<p>PS: From my experience, I found that AP requires a more factual/knowledge based orientation and that IB requires a more conceptual orientation. Thus, in IB, sadly, a lot of the work can be BSed. To do well in either, you also don't necessarily have to be a 'smart' individual, just a hard-worker. So, if you're not particularly bright, don't be intimidated!</p>