IB vs. AP

Parents Forum
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<p>It looks like we might be moving overseas, and I've learned that the school our daughter would transfer into as a 10th or 11th grader offers a choice of two degree tracks: IB or AP. In the IB option, either High Level or Standard Level exams are offered in many subejcts. For the AP approach, AP's are offered in Economics, English Lit., Calculus AB or BC, Biology, Chemistry and Physics. There is something called AP International Scholars which requires 4 or more APs with scores of 4 or above. We need to decide which would be a better fit for our daughter, assuming she'll be coming back to the states for college. </p>

<p>I've heard the IB program is well-regarded by U.S. colleges and universities, but I wonder if the way one is graded in it might not be good fit for our daughter. Apparently, the exam counts for 60-80% of the student's grade in the courses. Our daughter has weak memory and tends to do poorly on any test emphasizing recall of facts. Give her an essay, an interpretatation, a debate or oral report and she'll excell. She also does well on intelligence-oriented or reasoning tests as opposed to tests assessing one's recall of taught material. Thus she tends to get great grades for class particpation and assignments, but lower ones on class exams. </p>

<p>Does anyone have any idea what the IB tests emphasize? I'm imagining because they are standardized across countries that they must be heavily fact and recall oriented. </p>

<p>We'd be most grateful for any guidance here!</p>

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<p>Well to assauge your fears, most of the IB exams (aka papers) are essays, there are very few multiple choice tests. Also, at my school, we had to take the IB exams, as well as the AP exams, to insure that we received some college credit.</p>

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<p>Befuddled, we live overseas (in Jakarta) and our son’s highschool (he’s in college now) offers both AP and IB. Most (but not all) of the American kids take the AP route. The Europeans and Asians go for the IB Diploma. Some take a mix of AP and IB
Classes without the diploma. The teachers usually specialize in one or the other and are quite protective and defensive of their own system. This somewhat dilutes the school’s ability to offer a comprehensive selection of courses in either track, which leads to more criticism. Some classes are billed as AP slash IB, but this is difficult as the curriculum for each is very specific. </p>

<p>After much deliberation (and cheerleading from both factions) my son chose to get the IB diploma. It was the right decision for him because the program is comprehensive and very organized. It is extremely writing intensive and focuses on analytical skills which have served him well in college. Two features of the IB which I think are its greatest strengths are the class called Theory of Knowledge (which is philosophy) and the Extended Essay, a long research paper. The negatives were the art studio program was somewhat restrictive in creativity and the choice of classes in social studies was limited. These may have been weakness at his school not universal issues.</p>

<p>American colleges are just getting used to the IB Diploma. Some really, really respect it. Some just consider it a strange European version of the AP. There’s a lot of confusion on how to grant credit or acceleration for IB scores. The colleges’ systems are set up for the AP and the IB doesn’t quite fit in the mold. For my son, I believe the IB diploma was a plus in his admission to a selective LAC; however remember that most IB test scores don’t come out until the American admission process is well over.</p>

<p>The information that you have on the importance of exams sounds odd to me. The IB exams are given in May and the results come out in July. For kids going on to European and Asian colleges these tests are critical to admission. In fact they are the single most important factor. For US schools, only the exams given at the end of the Junior year, can be considered in admission. Since these would be the standard one year classes they are generally not the most important scores. The Higher courses are two year courses and the exams are taken at the end of senior year, when the American kids already have their acceptances.</p>

<p>Some schools give mock-exams both to help the kids get used to the test and to use as a final exam in the course. At my son’s school the impact of this exam was variable, but I can’t think of any class in which it would have figured more than 30% of the final grade. In the end he received an ABC grade for every class which determined his gradepoint. The IB exam scores, which are numerical, didn’t figure into his class grade.</p>

<p>The exams themselves depend on the disciplines. The math and science exams are by necessity quantitative. The English and History exams are analysis and writing driven. The arts project evaluation tries to be perfectly equitable and objective, but in any creative endeavor this is difficult to achieve. There are very, very specific guidelines for grading and evaluation for all exams and scores can also be appealed. For non-Americans this is a very serious undertaking which could influence the course of their lives. (For example we know one very bright girl who was provisionally admitted to a top UK university, but after she did poorly on the exams her admission was denied and she was without any choice of college at all.) This is not the American system however. If you do poorly on the exams, you just don’t send the scores.</p>

<p>From the little that you’ve told us about your daughter, it sounds as if she’d excel in the IB program, BUT – and this is a big but – you need to evaluate the strength of the program based on her high school’s commitment to it. It costs a lot in development and training to administer either an AP or IB program. When schools have both, one or both can suffer. I’d suggest that you talk to parents with children in college in the US and see how they fared.</p>

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<p>To add to momrath's comments:</p>

<p>The most selective colleges recognize IB. A score of 6 or 7 is recognized for credit where credit is given, equivalent to a score of 4 or 5 on an AP exam. As momrath says, exams are held in May and scores come out in July. This is true, too, of APs.<br>
If your child is interested in math science, google the NRC report on advanced math/science courses that came out a few years ago. The report covered both APs and IBs.
If you child is more interested in the humanities and social sciences, I think the IB curriculum would work very well. But one point to consider is prior preparation. The IB program is better coordinated, but for that reason, it can also be more rigid in its structure than the APs.</p>

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<p>Befuddled,
My kids attend an international school where both IB and AP are offered. Both took/are taking a mix of classes IB Higher, IB standard and AP classes. They did this for various reasons- to be able to take particular electives, to have or to avoid certain teachers and mostly because at our school it is hard to schedule all 3 sciences if you are doing IB... (and we felt this was important- not for college admissions, just in general..)..</p>

<p>You usually do not get college credit for "standard" level IB exams, so both took some AP exams after IB Standard classes and did well (5s)- though they had to do a bit of self study. I don't think you can get the AP International Scholar recognition as an American, but there are many recognition levels- we didn't care about this-to be truthful...</p>

<p>As to the content and testing differences, it is course specific. The most memorizing for any AP/IB course was AP US history by far. IB European history requires factual recall, however, since the essays are supposed to be very example-laden and specific. The IB science classes are very conceptual as well- though again there is a high level of recall required. The courses are sequential and cumulative. The AP classes are one year long, the IB higher classes (at our school anyways) cover 2-3 years of study. If you daughter has trouble accumulating information over a sustained period of time, this might be an issue. </p>

<p>Both programs prepare kids for external exams. Because of the timing, final course grades are based on the result of "mock" exams kids take in April, not the actual external exams in May. The external exams are all that matters for kids going to Uni in Europe, Australia and the UK, but for American kids they are only part of the college application package.</p>

<p>I don't think class participation or homework even count for much in most of these classes. There are frequent "internal assessments" which get the kids used to the way they will be assessed "externally" and which are more often large papers (history and econ) or multi step lab projects. There is a lot of essay writing in the IB Econ and History classes, but again, it is based on factual recall and learned information- not interpretation as it would be in an English class, for example...Both types of classes are highly geared towards exam preparation for the external exams...</p>

<p>Kids from our school who do the "most challenging program" do well in college admissions whether they do IB or AP. Both my sons will have taken 7 or 8 external exams by the time they are done...IB requires a minimum of 6 for the full diploma..you do not have to do a full diploma at our school- but to do so you also have to take the Theory of Knowledge class, write a 4000 word paper, and do a specific amount of community service- the IB diploma, therefore, is more all encompassing than the AP program in isolation. </p>

<p>OUr school has a lot of AP classes, but is IB-driven. I think most of the international schools that have both have a tilt one way or another...For the particular issue with your daughter, I am not sure that either program suits better, so you may want to make your decision based more on classes that are offered- in other words, what is she interested in taking, where does she excell and make sure to choose the IB or AP sequence if it offers more depth/more diversity in whatever she is interested in..or that allows her the greatest flexibility. </p>

<p>Having seen my sons do both I am not sure there is as much difference as people say there is....If there were, how are they able to cross-take exams and do so well (in Physics and Economics..)??---</p>

<p>An addendum, I am talking about the same school as Momrath!! As you can see, there are many perspectives!</p>

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<p>There are several concurrent IB threads on different boards, so I apologize for duplication. I don’t really have an argument with AP or a combination of AP/IB. Many of my son’s classmates did not choose the full IB Diploma and they did fine to wonderful in the college admissions sweepstakes. For my son, IB was a great choice and a great program. I am leery of high schools that offer both AP and IB tracks as I think it’s nigh impossible to finance and administer both and that the competition between the two is unnecessarily stressful for the kids and the families. If it were up to me, I’d say just choose one program and make it the best. If your high school does offer both IB and AP, I’d ask a lot of questions of the administration, teachers, parents and students before choosing one or the other.</p>

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<p>I will add just one thing: standard level courses should not just be one year. They are part of the IB diploma package and at our school are two years and run during the normal school day as other regular classes. Higher level have to add "extra" classes to get up to the number of hours required for them. That means going to school at night or after school, or on a Saturday if needed to make sure the number of hours is correct. Also just taking a standard level class outside of the full diploma program will give you no college credit but if you pass the IB diploma at 30 points, many schools now give you a full year's credit. Part of that credit is the 3 standard levels you take for the diploma. One of our students entered Stanford as a Sophmore. Granted, he was brilliant. You may get a 4 in a subject test and still pass with a 30. For a while my school allowed kids to just take "courses." But we have realized that it is not in their best interest to do so unless they are HL courses. Otherwise, they are not allowed anymore. I think schools have scheduling problems and tuck kids in whereever they can. Especially if they are small. Like momrath, I would say, do a full IB program or just take AP exams. Don't mix the two.</p>

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<p>Overseas,
Both of my sons have done IB Standard, IB higher classes and AP classes. How the time is spent for the IB courses is left to the discretion of the school in terms of # of years for a Standard class or Higher class or whatever. All our classes are during regular school hours, nothing at night as you mention...AT our school the kids have to take a "core" class in any science they want to do at Standard (1 more year) or Higher (2 more years) level- but not all schools do this. There is no US history class in the IB program, so a lot of kids at our school add that on. Furthermore, as I said before, you can do IB classes and take, and do well in, AP exams if you would like- my sons both did this in Physics, scoring 5 on the AP after only the standard course (since they could not get credit for the standard exam). At our school, with an IB emphasis, there are only a few places where the tracks are distinct- math and English specifically- everything else is a mish-mash. </p>

<p>I personally don't like the idea that any external agency (to which a school pays tons of money!) has the right to define what kinds of classes my kids take when there are several excellent options! We liked the teachers and content of the AP classes better in English and math at our school- so the boys did those in AP, and nearly all the rest in IB where there really wasn't much choice. My son who did AP English Lit and Comp last year was placed in a sophomore level literary analysis class first semester freshman year at a tough LAC and got an A. I imagine that his preparation would have been equally good had he done IB Higher English, but his AP teacher lit a fire under him and is now doing the same with his younger brother...</p>

<p>I also am not so keen on the extended essay issue. I would much rather have my HS aged kid playing a sport, doing a play or whatever than writing a 4000 word, probably mediocre paper. I feel it is too soon for them to need to worry about this, they are both fine writers and will do well when the time comes in college...that's just a personal opinion. </p>

<p>One more thing, if a family is mobile, the IB is actually something of a pain..for the very reason you mention- different schools do it differently and kids can get really out of joint..with 2 year classes. With AP classes, just one year, it is a lot easier if you move (this was also a potential issue for us, though it didn;t materialize...thankfully)..</p>

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<p>I started the ib diploma this year. It has a very demanding course load and if you daughter is highly motivated can handle being stressed out most of the time ,pressured a great deal and can self study quite a bit on her own then she should go for it.. if not i think ap would be a better choice. The ib exams are only imp. for earning credits as colleges don't see the grades you get on them until they accept you, however we get something called predicted scores, and those are REALLy impt. Regardless of the fact that the exams are important in IB, we still do a lot of internal assessments like essays, labs, case studies, essays, essays, essays, and more essays... really essays are probably the most important thing which IB tries to emphasize . Even in Math we have to do some final project which in one way or the other has writing involved. Also in the sciences, or group four, their is this huge project that all of the science students do together, it basically has to incorporate bio, chem, physics and environmental systems and its concluded by a presentation and it makes up a large part of the grade .. it usually takes 15 "lab" hours to do. Also in english and the other foreign language classes we are expected to not only write the papers, yet also give orals and other presentations which are graded externally by the IBO ppl. At my school we have both IB and AP, and it is evident to everyone here that the IB students "suffer" much more. We get a greater amount of work on a daily basis, weather it be reading half of a novel in one night, preparing for an oral, or starting, and finishing 2 thau word essay in one night. Ib is challenging but its great and i love it regardless of everything because it leaves you well rounded and you can come out of it speaking two languages or more fluently.
robyrm>>> The ee doesnt take up that much time, and ib diploma students are REQUIRED to fullfill 150 CAS hours for creativity action and service. It teaches you a great deal about time management and time organization. For eg. Im on most of the school teams and clubs and outside of school i dance ballet + comm. service, and i still have time to write the extended essay which I happen to enjoy as im doing it on a topic which intrests me a great deal... and I doubt that a successful Ib student can only produce a MEDIOCRE paper when being given TWO years to work on it...</p>

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<p>i forgot to point out that it also depends on the school its self... my school is very small and some classes only have 2 or 3 ppl ( biggest class is six peeps) so we evidently get a lot of one on one with the teachers... so im guessing the education here could be better then somewhere with 20 students in a class. good luck</p>

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<p>Robrym, it would be horrendous to move an IB student from one school to another. So yes, the last two years should be stationary if a student is in the IB. Schools offer different combinations of classes etc. Also, sometimes it will take a student who moves to our school from another, a 13th year to finish since they don't have the background developed to follow a program that they want. Some do the 13th, some decide it isn't that important. I am glad there is an external agency watching over the process, that looks to the details from curriculum to how far apart desks are placed during exams etc. If it is done properly you know what you are paying for....again, teachers, like you mentioned, can add or detract from that dimension. Absolutely. As far as the extended essay goes, the papers are good for the most part. The kids who aren't in the IB have to do a very similar thing anyway with their Senior Project in order to graduate at our school. Even weak writers can rise to the occasion. The expectations have to be high for them to do that. I think Elodie as a student enmeshed in the process right now speaks to the heart of it. And by the way, Elodie....if you are getting 6s in all your subjects, that is great. The boy who did all 7s was just like that with his grades all along. 6s are wonderful. So are 5s! And you can still get out with a diploma with a few 4s. And on a final note, I can't wait, as a parent until the end of May.</p>

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<p>Elodie, son is in classes with 5-6 students and a few with 3-4. It is great! You have to be prepared, that is for sure. No sitting in the back row.</p>

<p>No discussion has been on the fact that in many schools now the IB is a K-12 program. I have friends working in Norway and Japan working in the elementary IB program. It is better since the curriculum flows through the school up to the top grades. One teacher doesn't like the paperwork component. The other thinks the program in elementary is brillant and she's a creative-independent type. Who knows?</p>

<p>There is also a political element to this story. The AP is considered American and most state department folks out of Virginia prefer it over the IB. The IB is a must for students going to universities anywhere else. I read this stupid article on how the IB is a "United Nations" curriculum just a few weeks ago. I think international schools with embassy dependents from the states are under pressure to have the AP and also under pressure from others to have the IB. So some schools are trying to offer all things for all folks and sometimes that doesn't work so well. Can't we just get along.......</p>

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<p>Elodie,
Glad it has worked well for you. Both my sons have had 7's on every IB exam they have taken, and mostly 5's on AP's...Both are fluent in 3 languages- including the one they studied at the IB Higher level... just because you CAN do the full IB diploma (because it is available, because you have the ability) doesn't mean, however, that you HAVE to do it in order to have a rigorous and interesting HS experience. They will be/are plenty ready for any college based on the program they have taken, and perhaps a little less burned out than some. They work plenty hard, write plenty of essays and do well...and, they don't really "suffer." </p>

<p>The OP's child has a unique learning style, it seems. She is not good at classes where you accumulate a lot of specific knowledge and have to produce it in a test situation. Does this truly sound like someone who should choose IB?</p>

<p>Overseas,
I am just not a huge fan of external assessment as the guiding factor in all learning. Our school looked at and reject the IB primary program and MS program a few years ago. Look, many schools don't have the where-with-all to come up with a truly special curriculum that is seen as sufficient in scope and sequence..so they buy into IB as a way to get a package deal. Here, in Jakarta,there are a dozen schools that are "IB World" schools and I wouldn't take my kids out of the school they are in (which has IB in HS only) for any of them...at many schools which say they are IB..it is just a name. YOu have to have the right caliber of teachers, and the right caliber of students.</p>

<p>I would rather my kids have a gifted teacher who has the flexibility, within a well thought out curriculum, to be spontaneous in content and in methodology as needed. I would rather my children not come to feel that a test is the be all and end all and that learning is only valuable if you are tested on it ultimately. </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong, I think the IB has a lot to offer in its rigor and depth in some areas, but I think anyone who buys it hook, line and sinker as the BEST is shortchanging teachers who are more creative and students who are more divergent than any program like this allows them to be....</p>

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<p>robyrm, although I'm joining this thread via another thread I'd started in the Parents Cafe, I just wanted to say that I appreciated reading your views on this program. I think it's important to get as wide a sampling of opinions - and the reasons behind them - as possible. </p>

<p>Since I'm still trying to get a handle on this whole thing, I'd like to ask why you think it's becoming popular in the US? Do you think it is more popular in areas that have not offered a truly good high school program in their public schools? Is it becoming more available because of nature of famiies who are being moved around the world due to their work? </p>

<p>And, finally, your point that a school must pay the IBO, I assume as the agency, quite a bit of money in order to grade and monitor the program brings the question to mind as to how this all works with the public school system in the US (which appears extremely bureaucratic to me).... Just some thoughts on my part as I'm trying to "get" this whole thing and the reasoning behind it for students who have been and will continue to be living in the USA vs those who have been or will be living over seas.</p>

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<p>For all of you aiming for ED or EA admissions bear in mind that your child will not even be taking his/her higher level IB tests until six months after applying to college and won't know their results because the tests go for external assessment, until after they have graduated from HS. In fact they will not get their IB diploma until they have actually gone off to college. </p>

<p>So the bottom line is, if your main goal in HS is to get the decal of an elite school on the back window of the Volvo you are still going to have to take all of those AP exams even if you do not take the AP courses, and since there are strict restrictions on when all those tests can be given you might well discover that you cannot take both sets of tests unless your school makes special arrangements. At our HS they were giving tests at 6 AM and sequestering kids under lock and key. It was the only way they could resolve the time conflicts.</p>

<p>On the other hand the IB curriculum is rigorous, integrated, well rounded, and because of the external assessments maintained at a high level. In the long run I think it has a lot more benefits than a colection of AP courses but you probably won't realize them in your short term goal of getting into that elite school.</p>

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<p>BLumini,</p>

<p>I think schools do this in part for the reason I mentioned..it is a "looks good, sounds good, all in a box" curricular approach. Maybe Americans are becoming even more "Eurocentric" and the idea of imposing limits on what kids can study has become more appealing, I really don't know... I am reminded of the zillions of "montessori" preschools 20 years ago which had nothing to do with what Maria Montessori ever intended, but felt there was cache in using the name....</p>

<p>I don't think it is because of a mobile population. In fact the more mobile you are the harder time you have with IB, ironically. For, example, our school is large and offers IB standard and Higher classes in a huge range of areas. 2 years ago we thought we might be moving to another country, to an all IB school. The school was smaller than ours and didn't offer Chemistry IB, Spanish (at all), or Economics IB. Their suggestion for my son who was about to be a senior was that he repeat his Junior year so that he could do full IB (but since he was doing Spanish, even this would not have worked). Ridiculous. Each school runs their IB program slightly differently- which makes it very hard to move school to school- even between grades 10 and 11 in our case...and definitely between 11 and 12..</p>

<p>The whole thing is centralized and I suppose some people like the idea of a rigorous, standardized curriculum taking over the planet, but I am not one of them...I hate the idea of teaching to a test as a guiding principal, or of teachers being so hemmed in by the content prescribed 6000 miles away that they can't extend or truncate or anything..</p>

<p>I am sure that no matter what the kids take, it is the teacher that makes all the difference...the curriculum matters to an extent I suppose, but a brilliant teacher can make all the difference with any group of bright kids.. IB or AP or no IB or AP...</p>

<p>Finally, I hate the idea that kids feel that they have to "suffer" to do well in HS. I am not sure that HS kids who are smart, organized and plan their work well should have to read a half a book a night (which sounds like poor planning by a teacher who is cramming for the external exam) and then brag about it? Is this really a good thing?? </p>

<p>If the choice had been IB or nothing, the boys would have done full IB. Each has taken 1 non-IB-non-AP science class and hasn't had to crack a book to get an A+. Luckily, we have a challenging alternative-- and it has worked well for them.</p>

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<p>Many students take Standard exams at the end of Junior year, so they have those scores when they apply to colleges. Also, they can get "estimated" scores (as the UK applicants need to) as well early in the Senior year.</p>

<p>People talk over and over about how "integrated" the program is...exactly what do you feel is integrated about it? I am curious since my son takes 4 IB classes, plus 2 AP classes, and I see absoutely no evidence of any less integration in the latter than the former. 3 of his IB classes are the 2nd year of a 2 year program, is this what you mean? </p>

<p>As for well rounded, my son will have 8 external exams in 6 different domains at the end of the year, most kids at our school go way over the CAS requirement for community service anyway. Many kids, mine included, take TOK out of curiousity- not because they have to...and I think I have already commented on the EE. </p>

<p>Is it really that much more well rounded?? Integrated??</p>

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<p>robyrm, you're very thoughtful and I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I couldn't agree withyou more about
[quote]
it is the teacher that makes all the difference...the curriculum matters to an extent I suppose, but a brilliant teacher can make all the difference with any group of bright kids..

[/quote]
I know from my own years, it's the teachers who did make a difference and they still sparkle like jewels in my mind's eye.</p>

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<p>ok i didn't mean "suffer" in that meaning...its hard and everything, but i said i liked it because i actually feel like i learn a lot. Reading half a book in a night is only because we have to cover a lot of material in HL and as overseas said at times we need to do 'extra outside of school - time work 'in order to get through the hours and the material.. its not the teachers' fault really... and im not BRAGGING about it either.. ok? i was just initially trying to show the person who made this thread what ib really is like so that her daughter could make the right choice... some people excel in it and some drop put... It depends on who you are in the end.. most importantly what maters is that one is happy and im happy being challenged and knowing that im accomplishing something worthwhile... rather then slacking off and being lazy which is what i would have done otherwise as i only work well under pressure.. so it suits me...and that's it.. NO BRAGGING or neithing..i mean i dont wanna give you the wrong impesion sir</p>

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<p>Patuxent, our students get into top universities & LACs when they do IB if they are top students. The fact that the final exams given in May and the scores are unknown until July doesn't affect their acceptance. Before we had the IB, they got in without AP, IB or anything but great grades and ecs. Now, since IB is the most demanding curriculum at our school I imagine that they must do the diploma program to get in. Maybe not. But top students are top students! They get into those schools by many different avenues.</p>