IB vs. AP

<p>Elodie, you understand the program better than any of us here. Go get em tiger!</p>

<p>Elodie,
I know you are not bragging, though you have a right to be proud of your accomplishments. I also know that you work very hard and it sounds like for now it works well for you. I will reiterate what I said earlier, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you have to do it.</p>

<p>overseas - I agree completely with what you say. It is just that most people posting on these boards are a lot more concerned about how the HS courses their kids take affect their college admissions chancee and hence how what they take manages to pad their resumes than one what they actually learn.</p>

<p>robyrm - I am unaware of any colleges that offer college credit or advanced placement for the standard level IB exams. Those exams do nothing for your stats.</p>

<p>Is the IB curriculum well rounded & integrated - any curriculum is dependent on the quality of the teaching staff and a great teacher mau be a great teacher without outside curriculum guidence but in 21st century America every state school board and local school board makes certain that no public school teacher gets by with a curriculum imposed on them usually in minute detail. If anything the IB curriculum leaves teachers and faculty with more room that what usually comes out of the state offices and certainly isn't as test centric as the AP curriculum which is nothing but teaching to the test. </p>

<p>As for integrated, at least at my sons school I thought themes carried across subject fields and years quite well but that may have been as much because the faculty co-ordinated well as much as because of anything the IB folks did.</p>

<p>patuxent, by your bringing up the reality of the state school boards and local school boards imposing curriculums upon their public schools and effectively forcing their teachers to teaching to the test you've hit upon what I consider to be some of the scarier parts of public schooling...although I am sure there are many on this board who'd swear by their own public schools, this just happens to be one of my big fears.</p>

<p>Perhaps this "fear" of mine is really derailment of this thread and ought to have one of its own, but I wanted to thank you for bringing this aspect up - comparing the IB's curriculum to that of the public schools'.</p>

<p>Patuxent- Both my sons took IB Standard courses (physics, economics) and then took AP exams afterwards and got 5's on them. The content of the courses wasn't identical-they had to do self study, but they did fine. This is a way to get around this particular issue (at least for these classes)...</p>

<p>To my way of thinking, however, if this is so doable...then are the programs really all that different at this level?? I honestly don't know, but the relative ease with which my sons did this suggests there is a lot more similarity than some would acknowledge.</p>

<p>I have to say that I for one take exception with this comment "It is just that most people posting on these boards are a lot more concerned about how the HS courses their kids take affect their college admissions chancee and hence how what they take manages to pad their resumes than one what they actually learn."</p>

<p>If all we had been concerned about was resume padding, we would have definitely had our sons do the full IB!!!</p>

<p>Not really robyrm because you can take AP courses the tests in plenty of time to use in the colllege application process but the higher level IB exams - the only ones most colleges give advance plcement or college credit for are taken and scored way too late for the application process. No colleges care about standard level IB exams but you can take AP courses and exams in 10th and 11th grade.</p>

<p>For most of the folks posting on these boards their kids are applying ED or EA to the schools they really want to get into so nothing that happens after NOV 1 of 12th grade really matters short of actually flunking something. You have won or lost by then because the application is due.</p>

<p>I completely understand the IB system and the impact of the exams on admissions and placement for kids from different countries, etc.. our school sends kids around the world to colleges, but I still disagree with your analysis.. </p>

<p>You are saying that doing AP is resume padding because the kids have the exam results to show when they are applying to colleges...</p>

<p>But, IB is "real learning" and kids who are doing it are not gaining advantages by virtue of the impact of the cache of the IB diploma since they take their higher exams at the end of the senior year.</p>

<p>The padding in fact just takes a different form...At our school at least, IB classes, including the first of the 2 years of the Higher sequences are weighted. IB Higher classes and AP classes are weighted 1.0. IB standard classes are weighted .5 (and I disagree that the standard exams don't matter- they don't matter for advanced credit, but it never looks bad to get a top grade on an external exam- if they didn't matter, they wouldn't ask for the grades- but they do)...</p>

<p>So, the padding comes in the form of inflated GPA's, not exam results in 10th or 11th grade. PreCalculus- no weighting, the first year of IB Higher Theater Arts - weighting of 1.0.....you tell me...</p>

<p>Our school has an excellent track record with IB...but it also has an excellent track record with AP. For my kids, a mixture of the two- rather than blinkered loyalty to one or the other seems to have worked well. They went in with eyes open about the GPA issue, about the exam issue, about the teachers, about the classes...etc...</p>

<p>Both the IB and AP (College Board) are enormous, bureaucratic organizations with profit motivation. I'm sure given the chance I could have learned to dislike both equally. As I said separately, schools that offer both IB and AP leave themselves open for conflict and competition between proponents of each system. Teachers become specialists in one track or the other which makes the school less flexible. At our school there were superstar teachers in both tracks and unfortunately some mediocre ones as well. They were extremely vocal (and persuasive) about their prejudices.</p>

<p>TOK was a great class (one of the superstar teachers) and my son benefited enormously from the extended essay in which he explored one of his longtime areas of interest at great depth and with the unflaggingly conscientious support of two superstar advisors. Trying to fulfill the IB's criteria for studio art, however, nearly resulted in the artist's equivalent of writer's block. (One of his less successful teaching experiences.) Creative writing and religion, two of the most stimulating and fulfilling classes in his entire high school career, were neither AP nor IB. (Again, superstar teachers.)</p>

<p>My conclusion: The IB diploma was a good choice for my son and I'm glad he chose to go this route. I certainly wouldn't recommend it for all students in all situation. Interested parents should investigate at length. Find out who the teachers are. Make sure the classes you child wants/needs will be available including non AP/IB choices.</p>

<p>Did the IB diploma help him in college admissions? We will never know for sure. I think yes, but I don't think that that in itself is a good reason for doing it.</p>

<p>Thank you all for your great insights! It's particularly helpful to hear from others at overseas schools that offer both AP and IB tracks. I now understand that IB isn't just a lot of fact memorization, and feel that it's emphasis on writing and synthesis of ideas would, in fact, be an excellent fit with my daughter's strengths. She'd love the huge paper assignment. She's not a disaster at memorization, it just takes her more a lot more effort to recall than others like my son who can look at something once and have total recall. </p>

<p>Now I have three more questions. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>How does one apply to U.S. colleges without the test scores from the final exams at the end of the two year program? I think someone said something about interim scores? How does that work? When do you take the interim tests? How does this affect early decision application? She's interested in LAC's and is a legacy at one Ivy and one top LAC.</p></li>
<li><p>We're thinking of having her "repeat" 10th grade if we move. She is very young for her grade, and in spite of being smart could benefit from more time to grow up and we'd like to have her around a few more years. Also this would give her a chance to settle into the new country before beginning the intensive IB sequence. I was hoping that by doing this she could do more IB courses, spreading things over three rather than two years, fitting in, for example, all three sciences. However it sounds like the program is exclusively set up with two year courses for 11th and 12th graders, and that it couldn't be spread out over three years. Does that sound correct? If that's the case, aybe she could do some AP's during that first year, but even those are set up as 2 year courses at this school. Now I'm not sure what she'd do the "extra" year. CTY correspondence courses maybe?</p></li>
<li><p>The only language the school we're looking at offers is French, and my daughter takes Spanish. She does not want to switch - she loves Spanish and goes off to language camps during the summer for fun. I was hoping she could do the Spanish IB outside of the new school. I noticed there are summer Spanish IB courses in Spain, for example. Does anyone know if one can take one of their IB courses away from their school, and then take the test somewhere else too? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thank you so much. Your help is really appreciated!</p>

<p>ya she can do spanish self tought... but it would have to be taken as a first language (a1) at standard level.. she could take the exam wherever as long as she pays for it if your d would like she can email me <a href="mailto:anytime...hebaelhabashy@hotmail.com">anytime...hebaelhabashy@hotmail.com</a> weather it be about ib or country hopping or wtv</p>

<p>Befuddled,
When we almost moved schools after my son's Junior year (he had already taken 6 years of Spanish) it would have been to a school that only offered French and Russian. He was stuck, basically...I have never heard of anyone doing a second language outside of the school, but why not? Having said this, if you are going to a French speaking country- there is a big advantage in doing French(especially for a teenager who wants to get around)- and in 2 years you can do the standard level in something they call "Ab Initio"-- ask about it.</p>

<p>As for the repeating 10th grade, I would do this with caution. The age ranges of kids at international schools vary very widely (more so than in the US) because the kids move so often and come from different country systems. If the school isn't large, in particular, you don't really want her to be much, much older than all the other girls in her class, in particular.. I would speak with the HS guidance people about this before considering it. Ask them about their student population and make sure there are plenty of EC's that she loves, etc..</p>

<p>Also, as an aside, not every kid moving in HS is thrilled to go and may not want to be out of the US for 3 years if they could just do 2...of course, it is a fabulous experience and most kids love it...but you never know...</p>

<p>The IB is meant to be done in 2 years. If a student can't handle the program and spreads it out over the 3 years, then it probably dilutes the allure of the program to the colleges, just my guess. The whole issue of 3 sciences is one of the problems with IB...</p>

<p>After the first year of IB you can do some standard level exams, these would be on your transcript or school report. The US schools care more about the grades in classes, and they don't seem to care that the IB Higher scores come out in May (which is why some kids blow them off ultimately)...for kids at our school it has not been an issue. I would guess that in recommendations teachers might refer to "predicted scores."</p>

<p>Interesting facts about IB - my daughter just graduated last year with the full diploma and 2 extra certificates. She also took more than the required higher levels (I think it was 6). She also took the AP exams and was a National AP scholar just to make sure she would get the credits. She did well on all her exams - well enough that she is graduating a year early from a tough college that only excepts 6/7 IBs or 5s on APs (but not all APs - she got a 5 in APUSH as 9th grader and her college does not accept US History!). She is an excellent writer and IB certainly prepared her for college - a few of her essays were copied and distributed to the class for discussion bc of her analytical writing. One professor wants her to submit one paper to an environmental magazine and she isn't even studying science but International Politics! I guess what I am trying to say is I think IB was very helpful in teaching her how to write and write quickly. She said she never spent a long time writing those papers bc they taught her how to research and write correctly. Now if only I could take IB.......then this would all make sense!
Good luck with your decision!</p>

<p>Befuddled,</p>

<ol>
<li>How does one apply to U.S. colleges without the test scores from the final exams at the end of the two year program?
I think that different high schools may handle grades differently, especially schools that don't have a great number of students planning to study in the US. At my son's school every class (IB or otherwise) was given a letter grade. The subsequent IB exam score was not directly related to the letter grade given by the individual teacher. The IB (as far as I know) had nothing to do with the class grade and the teacher had nothing to do with the IB exam score. </li>
</ol>

<p>At my son's school they gave mock exams around the end of the term, both to familiarize the students with the test format and to get a general prediction of how the students' would fare on the IB exams. (This is also a precaution against a worst case scenario in which kids would be unable to take the exams which actually happened at our school the year we were evacuated by the State Department!) If I remember properly some teachers used the mock exam as their final exam, some gave their own internal final. Presumably, they were influenced by the mock exam score in grading the student, but again, they had no obligation to do so.</p>

<p>If your daughter will be studying in a system in which most kids go to college in Europe or the UK (or other parts of the world) the grading system may be entirely different. As I said, the IB exam grades can make or break a college acceptance in colleges in other parts of the world so they take the process very seriously.</p>

<p>My son, for various reasons, received no college credit or course acceleration for any of his IB scores, even the 6's and 7's.</p>

<p>How does this affect early decision application?
My son went the ED route. The only IB scores that he submitted were the results from the exams for the one year courses that he took at the end of his junior year. (An interesting subplot here: because of the confluence of the extended essay, college applications and an overly aggressive EC schedule -- there was a girlfriend in there too -- his grades for first semester senior year were the weakest of his whole high school career. Because he applied, and was accepted, ED these were never a factor, but it could have turned out differently.)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>We're thinking of having her "repeat" 10th grade if we move.
This is out of my league. I'd suggest that you talk to the IB coordinator at the school as like everything in the IB, schedules are very carefully regulated.</p></li>
<li><p>Does anyone know if one can take one of their IB courses away from their school, and then take the test somewhere else too?
Too bad about the Spanish, but as Robyrm said a good chance to start French ab initio. I'm sure she could take the IB exam in Spanish, but I don't know if outside study would qualify for the diploma requirements. Another one for the IB people.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Now I have an IB question as well. On a separate thread Northstarmom mentioned that kids in Florida (where there are many IB schools) are allowed to re-take the exams. I don't disbelieve NSM but I am really surprised, that the IB would authorize re-takes. This certainly isn't done at our school. Anyone else have information on the procedure?</p>

<p>I think Clipper pointed out the biggest strength of the IB program:</p>

<p>"IB was very helpful in teaching her how to write and write quickly."</p>

<p>I wrote a 12 page term paper my 1st semester that I got an A on in about 9 hours, including the researching from scratch. You will write write write in every class, including foreign languages and math. The first time I pulled an all nighter in IB, and I only did it a couple times, was when I started a math portfolio (Math internal assessment) at 10pm the night before it was due. You basically get a probelm, and work through it and explain each thing like a text book.</p>

<p>As for applying to US schools, I as well got grades in every class, just like a normal class. The IB score didn't affect them at all. I never took mock exams, so I don't think predicted scores were sent from my school, but from international schools they definitely will be.</p>

<p>You CAN take IB exams again. But you have to wait until the next exam date, which for most people would be November. (There are two exams sessions a year, November and May). That's a long time to retain the material. Also, you can request to have certain papers regraded.</p>

<p>About taking IB classes away from school, the problem with this, is that IB has internal assessments. This is no problem for AP classes, where you can just take the test. For the Spanish, the student will have to have a 10 minute taped conversation with a teacher in March, and then sit for the 2 papers in May. The way those would work is in a class of 30, maybe 6-9 of them would be sent away, to make sure the teacher is grading the same as the other teachers around the world. If they aren't, a factor is applied to each score, such as multipling each score by 1.2 if your teacher grades harder, or .8 if your teacher grades lower.</p>

<p>If you want college credit, you're better off putting in a couple hours to familiarize yourself with the AP test for the coresponding subject. For example in English, three 40 minute essays on 80 line passages are written differently than one 2 hour essay on a 60 line passage.</p>