<p>You have not really said so directly, but what would his rank order of schools be if the cost were all the same? And how much of a difference would he think there is in quality and fit for him between the schools?</p>
<p>Also, are there any other schools in the mix (e.g. your in-state public universities), or have these already been dropped from consideration?</p>
<p>That’s part of our dilemma. He isn’t really sure. He thinks a small liberal arts college would be more pleasant but they all look alike to him. I’m aware that Wes is the most prestigious of the bunch he was accepted to but he doesn’t like it anymore than Lawrence. I think our conversation would be very different if he were dying to go to one of these schools. Right now, he’s intrigued by ASU but would probably pick Whitman or Grinnell if money were no object. i thought these two were less intense and more friendly than the rest.</p>
<p>^^^I agree with you. The comment above yours was ridiculous.</p>
<p>@cb, it is an unfortunate truth about CC that there are some very abrasive commentators, bordering on trolls. Most people want sincerely to help, but some vent with real mean spiritedness. It’s best to block them, because if you return it in kind, you just open yourself to further abuse.</p>
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<p>Hmmm, if he would be unsure and undecided if the costs were the same, then wouldn’t the $160,000 to $220,000 difference decide in favor of or at least be a strong push toward ASU?</p>
<p>To return to the subject. This is a unique moment, one which may determine the kind of track (and mind) that your son will choose/develop. I have no idea if he can find mentors at ASU and know nothing about Barrett, but if he wants to do philosophy, a small LAC may be better than a massive state school with its individual contacts and attention. </p>
<p>I also find it tedious the way people criticize your perspective. When you applied, you didn’t know what options you would have - now you do and you are thinking about them. That’s what you should do. I wish you and your S the best of luck.</p>
<p>Perhaps these class schedules this semester will show the difference between ASU and Grinnell in philosophy (showing the typical pros and cons of big and small schools):</p>
<p><a href=“Class Search”>Class Search;
<a href=“https://itwebapps.grinnell.edu/classic/asp/WebAdvisor/showit.asp?goal=search”>https://itwebapps.grinnell.edu/classic/asp/WebAdvisor/showit.asp?goal=search</a></p>
<p>ASU: 22 unique undergraduate philosophy courses + 12 graduate philosophy courses, but the largest class has enrollment of 256 (the smallest undergraduate class has 1, and the smallest graduate class has 1).
Grinnell: 9 unique undergraduate philosophy courses, largest class has enrollment of 25 (smallest class has 11).</p>
<p>Note: the above count excludes research and independent study courses.</p>
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<p>More like SHOULD be funded. I know some people, including a few friends disagree with the following stance, but the consensus among most Profs and relatives who are academics is if one needs to pay full-tuition(no funding) or will go into substantial debt to pursue a PhD, then that PhD program’s not worth pursuing. </p>
<p>Especially considering the lack of receiving any fellowships or enough meaningful fellowships is likely be held against you if the goal is to get hired on the tenure-track in academia. </p>
<p>The point is that, if he goes for a PHD, he won’t need money for grad school because he’ll be funded (if he’s not, he won’t be doing a PHD) but if he wants to go to law school he won’t be.
My concern is fit: Barrett is an AWESOME honors college and it does insulate the students from the all week nights partying noise and the bathrooms with splotches of vomit that are so common at ASU, but Barrett’s still part of ASU. A kid who likes colleges that are 2,000-4,000 may not feel comfortable on a campus designed for 60,000.
That’s why I raise the issue of fit: an expensive outfit that fits is better than a cheap/free one that doesn’t fit unless all you can afford is the ill-fitting outfit.
Transfer isn’t so much fun - and sure, if Wesleyan is full-pay, then he could always apply during the winter of freshman year, but it’s not the same as a no-risk situation.
On the other hand, it sounds like your son is ambivalent. “Fit” doesn’t seem so clear.
Has he spent an overnight at all of them? What are his impressions?
Would he like Lawrence better than Barrett (as a compromise) or would he like Barrett better?</p>
<p>Re: schedules: classes that have fewer than a certain number of students tend to be cancelled (I think it’s 4 grad, 18 undergrad).</p>
<p>The faculty at ASU looks strong, and of course the department is bigger than that at any at the smaller schools. There are professors with PhDs and post-docs from Harvard, Oxford, etc. There’s one guy who has been “a visiting fellow at the Princeton University Center for Human Values, the Edmond J. Safra Foundation Center for Ethics at Harvard University, and a visiting assistant professor at Stanford University.” Many have been published in leading philosophy journals and several have served as editors of them. If your son’s interests intersect with law, there is a leading scholar on Native American tribal rights and another who has “a national reputation in ethical and legal theory and in collective and corporate responsibility and criminal liability.”</p>
<p><a href=“People | School of Historical, Philosophical and Religious Studies”>https://shprs.clas.asu.edu/people</a></p>
<p>I am a big fan of liberal arts colleges, but an intellectual, motivated kid in the honors program at a place like ASU should have no trouble finding peers and committed faculty.</p>
<p>I also think sometimes people hide behind the idea of “fit” to justify otherwise irrational decisions. No one can promise a perfect fit to a kid who has only set foot on a campus for a day or two while still in high school. The stars still have to align and the student has to assume responsibility for finding his or her way and taking advantage of opportunities.</p>
<p>Given that the money IS there, I agree with the poster who said they felt that Wesleyan was worth stretching for. It’s a great school (my sibling attended). Excellent networking opportunities. Also, I would not worry about him being surrounded by rich kids. There are some, to be sure, but it’s a pretty diverse campus. My brother was definitely NOT a rich kid :)</p>
<p>And congrats on his acceptance there! You said his grades were not great… and it’s HARD to get into… he must have some remarkable qualities! Congratulations!</p>
<p>I undertand where inparent is coming from. Our state flagship and UMiami would have been free for my son, but neither would have been a “fit”. Spend 10 minutes with my reserved kid and you would come to same conclusion.</p>
<p>There was a $30,000 difference betwee his 2 top contenders, just because one was priced better. I did not know then that he could win upper class merit awards, nor that he could earn between 5-11,000 each summer.</p>
<p>I know no one who went to Lawrence, but happy kids from Grinnell and Wesleyan. I think the feel of these 3, plus ASU, should really help the OP’s son at least have preferences. If I was OP, I’d be encouraging visits, sitting in on classes, talking to students and profs.</p>
<p>If the money is there for Wesleyan or any of the other LACs where your son has acceptances, what happens to it if he chooses Barrett? Is it earmarked for his future (whether law school, additional support during a funded PhD program, summer or study abroad opportunities, a down payment on a home)? </p>
<p>OP, have you talked to celesteroberts yet? Her daughter was a super-accomplished high school student with amazing stats and chose Barrett over other desirable options. She seems to really like it.</p>
<p>Kids from our high school go to Lawrence, Grinnell and Wesleyan. I wouldn’t say there is a big difference between any of these kids or any of these schools in terms of opportunities they offer students.</p>
<p>OP: One other thing to consider is that it sounds like your son is a high score, lower GPA kid (from your post where you say his grades are not that great). In my experience, many kids don’t change that much in college. Some find their footing or their motivation and OK grades become great grades. Others continue the same path - smart enough to get by with minimal effort, but don’t put in the extra work to shine. If that is your son, woiuld a school like Wes or Grinnel be the best place for him? Or event Barrett, which seems to be full of very good students. Would your son be more likely to shine at Lawrence? </p>
<p>Assuming that some belt-tightening might make a private LAC work, but given the huge amount of money involved - </p>
<p>I think he needs to visit these schools, sit in on classes, and talk with students and professors. If he decides he really wants the LAC experience, he should have a clear idea of what the money is buying. He might find he likes Barrett better than other options once he gets a chance to see it. State school honors programs do try to offer the advantages of LAC’s via smaller sections of intro classes, as well as the advantages of large research universities.</p>
<p>He (and you) can also get online and browse Rate My Professor, read school newspapers, and put together some four year schedules for classes he would need to take for various majors, adding in pre-med requirements if interested. </p>
<p>Also, I think it is a good idea if you go the private route, to consider whether you would need to"pull the rug" (your words) if you end up with additional unplanned educational expenses outside of professional school. Even if not an extra semester or two, some students do not really hit their stride in terms of knowing what they want, and where they really excel, until their final semesters of college. It is nice to have a little financial wriggle room to catch up should they decide they want to go to medical school after all, change their major or take post-bac classes to prepare for graduate school in a field where they show unanticipated interest and promise, or obtain a post-bac certificate in a vocational field. Or, if they hit a really rough patch and have to take time off. </p>
<p>You might also ask your son to browse course listings, decide which upper-level classes interest him, and select a few potential majors based on these. He might discover at the LAC that he quickly runs into scheduling conflicts if the only section of gen chem conflicts with the only section of his foreign language, and should take note of that. (Might run into similar issues at Barrett, though, especially if he is In a small major or limiting himself to honors classes.)At each school, ask where majors in these departments go after graduation. You might discover, for instance, that most majors in a field that seems “impractical” end up going to medical school or law school or Teach for America rather than graduate school. Also ask about attrition rates in majors that would seem to have good prospects for post-grad employment.</p>
<p>Since your son is undecided - </p>
<p>Find out if a school allows or encourages double majors, when students typically declare and how late in the game they can change course. Ask if students typically take upper-level classes outside of their majors to fulfill gen eds. Ask if an extra semester or two is permitted, or if a student will need to take post-bac classes if they aren’t really “finished.” </p>
<p>I would add that it is not unusual (and is even recommended) for a student to apply to a financial safety with rolling admissions. Also, many families do not know or wait to decide what is really going to matter most until all offers are in. (It is not as if OP’s S applied ED.) Sometimes it is easier for a student or family to gather information about programs after admission, because schools might take them more seriously.</p>
<p>I’m kind of with intparent as well. Look, every kid with the stuff to get accepted to Wesleyan can get a free ride, or at least substantial merit aid, at a number of good state schools. If your kid is that kind of student, and you’re going to make him take the merit money, why let him apply to someplace like Wes in the first place? You knew there would be no merit aid at Wes. (The converse is that every full pay kid at Wes could have gone for free someplace else, so it’s certainly not a “no-brainer” for those families, or for the full pays at other selective schools.)</p>
<p>In previous discussions like this, my position has been that if you really think as a matter of finances, your kid needs to take the merit offer, then, at the least, you need to offer him an apology for not spelling out the finances earlier, and an honest explanation for why you think he should take the offer. And you should probably buy him a car.</p>
<p>mom2and, Lawrence is hardly a cake walk. The expectations are high there, just like they are at other good LACs. (Forgive me if I am reading your post wrong.)</p>
<p>I still think people are being too harsh on the OP. Remember, at the time the student was applying to schools, the family might have known that some schools could end up being full-pay, but it’s unlikely that they would have anticipated an entirely free ride somewhere else. The anticipated decision between a $60K LAC and a $35K LAC and a $23K state school is not the same as any of those versus ZERO.</p>
<p>I would also discourage the OP from falling prey to the idea that a single school holds some “magic” that others don’t, or that “every kid with the stuff to get accepted to Wesleyan” (or wherever) is somehow destined for a special greatness that could not be achieved at another school.</p>
<p>Hunt, I was thinking more along the lines that a Wes admit should be able to get substantial merit at small LACs or more intimate public universities that resemble Wes. Indeed, this student did get merit at Lawrence, and a few steps further down the food chain, would likely have gotten even more generous offers. It’s a shame that this family did not get better advising about (1) making financial priorities clear before senior year and (2) finding financial safeties that fit the student better than ASU. A student that loves Grinnell should have applied to Truman State (Missouri’s public LAC), with an OOS sticker price below $25k and additional merit likely. University of Minnesota-Morris is another institution with a similar profile, price, and merit likelihood. Small classes, intimate campus, peaceful rural location, and low price.</p>
<p>It’s quite likely that the student will visit Barrett, love it, and thrive there for four years. I hope so. It would just be nice if there were a mix of low-cost options on the table instead of only one, and that one a school with very little in common with the student’s favorite campuses.</p>
<p>“it’s unlikely that they would have anticipated an entirely free ride somewhere else.”</p>
<p>This is where we disagree. They clearly did not anticipate it, but they could have. They couldn’t COUNT on it, but this is not a surprising result at all. It would have been a reasonable goal to aim for.</p>
<p>"“every kid with the stuff to get accepted to Wesleyan” (or wherever) is somehow destined for a special greatness that could not be achieved at another school."</p>
<p>I don’t think that’s what Hunt meant. Anyone with the stuff to get accepted to Wesleyan has admissions numbers that will get a full ride somewhere, that’s all. I agree with that analysis. Wes is very, very selective.</p>
<p>cbkeebler, I do not work for a college or in the college/financial aid industry. And I am not a ■■■■■ (post count should tell you that!). I am, in fact, a single parent who covered my D1’s LAC college expenses with NO help from her dad (even though it was a CSS Profile school), and am paying for D2 to go close to full price to a top college. However, having saved for their educations since they were born, I have been able to pull this off without compromising my financial future. </p>
<p>What does it say to your son that you didn’t look at the cost and your budget before letting him apply? What does it say that you are now backpedaling once you actually looked at the cost? You are certainly rationalizing… and I still don’t hear what your spouse has to say about this. </p>
<p>I you TRULY mean to let him decide what to do with the money (spend now/spend later), then let him do that without pressuring him to do what YOU would do. He should go to accepted student visits at his top choices, then make up his mind. You can afford it… you are just having remorse about letting him apply to expensive schools and not running your numbers earlier. If it truly compromises your financial future, then I think you owe your son an apology for not looking at the cost picture earlier in the process.</p>