<p>OP didn’t know what the financial aid awards would be until they applied, she isn’t taking any options off the table but wants to guide him to what she thinks is the right choice financially. I think it’s insanely stupid to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at an 18 year old and say “here, do what you will” without any guidance. Your “pressuring” is my idea of “raising,” IMO, this is a pretty big decision for an 18 year old to make alone with somebody elses money. </p>
<p>Hanna, you might give people too much credit for being as savvy about all this as frequent posters like yourself. Also, financial circumstances can change for people, even over the course of a year or two. </p>
<p>In any event, kids who are offered full rides at public honors colleges are “Wesleyan material” (or insert the name of any other very selective school). There was just a post this morning on a thread from last fall about what schools students turned down for U of Alabama. Glancing through I saw UNC, Vanderbilt, Pitzer, Haverford, Tulane, Johns Hopkins, Rice, William & Mary, WashU STL, and Michigan. The only thing that might differentiate these kids is their families’ willingness or ability to pay for more “elite” schools.</p>
<p>Also, MYOS—let’s not kid ourselves that there isn’t partying or vomit on the walls in the dorms of more elite schools. (Hello, Dartmouth? Amherst?) There’s also a lot of drug use at “elite” schools with a wealthier student body–and it’s often the more expensive stuff.</p>
<p>The OP probably knew that Wes does not give merit aid – or would have if they had read the Wes website. And again… did not mention the merit aid received in initial posts (maybe there is some at Bard, too? They do offer merit.) The OP is putting this out as a $220K vs $0 decision, and they do have choices in between. I also hear no information given on an economic downturn for the family…</p>
<p>“Hanna, you might give people too much credit for being as savvy about all this as frequent posters like yourself.”</p>
<p>I said that it’s a shame that this family did not get better advising. I sell this expertise for a living, so I know that this isn’t common knowledge. The timing is just unfortunate. This thread would have done the OP’s family a world of good 8 months ago. Hopefully it can still be helpful now, but the options are constrained in a way they would not have been before.</p>
<p>sally, as I know you know, there is partying–no doubt accompanied by some vomiting–at EVERY school, not just the ones that have been unfortunate to hit the news lately. :)</p>
<p>We see threads like this every year, and the reason is that kids with really high stats (i.e., stats good enough to get admitted to Wesleyan) are going to see very good merit offers if they apply to a wide enough variety of schools. I think people don’t realize going in just how seductive that free ride is going to be. It’s very understandable. Full freight at a selective school is very expensive, and you have to decide whether it’s worth it or not. But I think it’s really important to think about this very carefully in advance, especially if you are applying to some financial safety schools where substantial merit is possible. Would you rather pay full price for a BMW or drive a free (but nice) Ford for the next four years? People will make different decisions about such things, depending on how much money they have, and how they rank different values.</p>
<p>Note: this topic is even controversial when a kid is deciding between full pay at Princeton and a free ride to Duke, so it’s not surprising that it would be controversial when the two schools in question are even more different.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, this is a common phenomenon around here, when March/April college choice dilemmas could have been avoided several months ago by making the application list more carefully.</p>
<p>On the other hand, what may be more disturbing is that the student would be unsure between the schools if cost were no object (see [here](<a href=“idealic college experience vs good deal and good enough - #42 by cbkeeler - Parents Forum - College Confidential Forums”>idealic college experience vs good deal and good enough - #42 by cbkeeler - Parents Forum - College Confidential Forums)</a>) but the $160,000 to $220,000 difference in real life is not (for him) pushing the decision to ASU. If I were in that situation as the student, with several choices that are not clearly better than each other in my viewpoint, a choice that is at least $160,000 cheaper would win easily. It is as if the student does not realize what $160,000 is.</p>
<p>A student who has no “money smarts” may find it difficult to go through college without going over budget, even if he sees his fellow students live better on less money.</p>
<p>I know, Consolation. I was just singling out two of the most elite to make the point. For some reason there is a persistent myth that it’s only students at the big state schools who engage in drunken revelry. :)</p>
<p>Hunt, in the past I might have picked the BMW, but as I write this I am shivering by my wood stove while my unexpected new furnace is being installed. After that I am going drop off my car for $2000 worth of unexpected repairs. So a free and nice-enough Ford sounds really good right now…it has been an expensive week!</p>
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<p>I made that point to help the OP’s S if he decides on the PhD route as there are still some grad school applicants with aspirations for tenure track who seem to believe it’s fine and dandy to attend a PhD program as a full-pay student without fellowship funding or to go into substantial debt for one. </p>
<p>Just posting the consensus from academics at my LAC and friends/relatives who were academics…doing either is an exceedingly bad idea if getting on the exceedingly competitive tenure track is the goal. Having no/too few fellowships makes one look far less competitive in the already exceedingly competitive tenure-track hiring process</p>
<p>Also, had a visting professor in college who made it a point for us to avoid attending his elite public U’s PhD program because the department in his field was short of money. He ended up in substantial debt to complete his degree despite receiving fellowships as they didn’t cover a substantial portion of his tuition and fees. His general advice was to research PhD programs with good funding sources/policies and avoid ones which are short of money or don’t offer full funding to all/most of its admits. </p>
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<p>The prevalence of partying or drug use varies greatly by campus culture and is much more nuanced than that.</p>
<p>For instance, the prevailing campus culture at my LAC does have a substantial presence of weed and psychedelic users when I attended in the mid-late '90s…and those users made little effort to hide this IME. However, it was very much a live and let live culture and there was no pressure to partake. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I’ve known of and been to several campuses where there WAS strong peer pressure to party and consume alcohol in the campus culture. It was a factor in why HS classmates and/or their parents and most relatives avoided applying/attending such schools…especially after visiting. </p>
<p>Whether deserved or not, ASU does have a widespread reputation for partying and drinking among both folks I know from the West Coast/SW areas and from alums who attended. And from the alum accounts, that culture is far from the live and let live campus culture as existed at my LAC or colleges with similar cultures. </p>
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This is what the OP said about the financial aspect of this. Presumably, this is what the kid was told in advance. I don’t think it suggests that he lacks “money smarts” if he’s asking what happened to what he was told before.</p>
<p>I agree with ucbalumnus. If this were a case of a student for whom Wes was the dream school, I’d probably be on Hunt’s side, especially since ASU was a last-minute addition. But if your S isn’t wedded to the idea of the LAC experience and simply has a vague preference for Wesleyan or Grinnell, I’d be a lot less inclined to spend that kind of money. </p>
<p>Has he visited Barrett? If not, now is the time. STAT. </p>
<p>This might not be the right place to ask, but are there really that many kids who wouldn’t see the value of saving that money for something else (for themselves or their parents)? I can’t imagine a discussion over these options with either of mine–who are really different in their attitudes about money–ending up with one of them trying to justify such a ginormous expense. </p>
<p>On the other hand, they have not grown up with extreme wealth. Maybe for those who have, it’s a different scenario.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the OP is being perfectly reasonable in laying out the choices before the kid and helping him make the decision. I do think that, as Ema said in an earlier post, it is unwise to just completely turn over to an 18 yr old a decision about spending several hundred thousand of someone else’s money. Guidance is required. Sounds like some accepted student visits are in order here.</p>
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<p>The lack of “money smarts” means being unable to decide between two things of similar quality and fit, when one is substantially less expensive than the other. Yes, even though (from the student’s point of view) it is someone else’s money, wouldn’t it make sense to avoid being wasteful even with someone else’s money?</p>
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My point didn’t deal with this at all. ASU is pretty much party central 24/7 in some residence halls/areas. My point was that Barrett ISN’T. BTW it’s not a matter of big state school vs. elite (Darmouth is indeed worse or eqaul to ASU re: party culture). I don’t think there’s much difference between Barrett, Wesleyan, and Lawrence in that respect and I stated that Barrett would insulate OP’s son from some aspects of ASU’s culture that would, frankly, prevent many freshmen from sleeping or studying enough or feeling at ease.
A student who likes Grinnell, Lawrence, and Wesleyan, is certainly an intellectual peer to the students in Barrett but may not like ASU’s atmosphere. It’d be very different if OP’s son had applied to UMiami, FSU, UMichigan, and UVA - in fact I’m not sure we’d be seeing this thread.
Barrett may be perfect for OP’s son (it IS a great program) but there’s a big difference between all the colleges OP’s son selected thoughtfully and the last college he selected just in case. Barrett may turn out to be the place OP’s son can see himself for 4 years but it may not. Wesleyan or Lawrence may equally turn out to be where he wants to be or not.
Op’s son must go on campus visits for admitted students at all three he’s been admitted to and see where he “fits” in. If there’s no difference in his mind, then Barrett should be a no brainer. But if there’s a difference, the family would need to talk about options - and it seems that’s what they’re doing.</p>
<p>Maybe it’s because of my “extreme wealth” (ha!), but I don’t see anything wasteful about spending money on a Wesleyan education if I’ve saved and budgeted for that purpose.</p>
<p>Look, if the kid is ambivalent about these schools, and really thinks that ASU is as good (or almost as good) for his purposes, then of course it makes sense to take the money. But if this really is just a case of parent’s remorse, and a kid who is reluctantly giving in, it’s a different story.</p>
<p>Let me just repeat: this offer from ASU isn’t, or at least shouldn’t be, some amazingly unexpected windfall. This family should have discussed early on what they would do if substantial merit aid was offered at one of the schools the kid applied to. Obviously, if they didn’t, this is mainly a precautionary note for others who may read this.</p>
<p>Make sure to ask about what happens after Barrett. How rigorous are the upper division humanities classes, how well do the professors engage their students, etc? I think Barrett might be a great opportunity for the first two years, but the fact remains that it’s still connected to Arizona State, something that will become much more apparent after the sophomore year. </p>
<p>There still could be merit money from Grinnell out there for another happy medium. They give 10-15k for strong students.</p>
<p>Haha…sorry, Hunt–I guess that came out wrong. </p>
<p>I am just picturing the family conversation that starts with “well, son, you’ve done great–you have all these acceptances on the table. Now, if you are DYING to go to Wesleyan, you can–we have saved enough to make sure it will work. However, if you choose a less expensive (or free) option, we will then have that $XXX,XXX to use for other things–law school, your wedding, your first downpayment on a condo, or our retirement.” I wonder what percentage of the time the kid would NOT choose the more financially conservative option? (And also, I agree with ema that letting a child have this much say over that much money is not just unlikely but unwise.)</p>