<p>I do not think that OP is forcing her son to choose Barrett solely because of the money,and it is unfair to assume that she will put a perpetual guilt trip on him should he choose one of the LAC’s or even the most expensive LAC. I think she wants to know what questions to ask to get an idea of what the extra money spent at an LAC might buy her son. I do not think that it is unfair for families that are full pay but balk at writing that check to be asking these questions, even if they are not looking for a simple ROI or taking out loans or raiding retirement funds, and especially not in an uncertain economic climate with eroding safety nets.</p>
<p>Sally: Did not mean to imply that Lawrence was a cake walk. This kid is clearly bright, but may be more laid back or less motivated to achieve top grades. The level of selectivity, and thus of student achievement, is lower (but still high) at Lawrence than Wesleyan. My assumption is that those students may be a bit more driven and thus it may be more of a challenge to maintain top grades. Lawrence and Barrett at ASU would not be easy, but maybe not quite as competitive. </p>
<p>There are a lot of kids that would still chose the expensive option over the money - and many families as well. The recent Villanova vs merit money thread certainly was one such family. </p>
<p>When there is a full ride on the table that is an acceptable option, it does cause a re-think of paying over $200K for the top pick. A smaller differential, while still substantial, may seem more reasonable. Also, was it a slam dunk that this kid would get a full ride to Barrett? I think the OP’s question is certainly understandable and not based on lack of information or poor advice. </p>
<p>There are significant differences between this thread and the Villanova thread : the daughter hadn’t applied to ANY other “peer” institution and just expected to get merit from Villanova (and, based on stats, wasn’t wrong to expect it); the other institutions were much lower ranked but of a similar type; and, most importantly, the family did NOT budget for the expense and wanted to borrow from retirement funds + make the kid borrow enormous amounts of money. </p>
<p>I do agree that it’s absolutely normal for the family to discuss options. I also totally agree with frazzled2* that OP is not forcing her son to choose Barrett.
As for guilt-tripping… the best of us do it even if we don’t realize it! So it’s very likely the parent is guilt tripping the son, but not out of malice, just being a normal parent 
However I do hear OP state that they have everything on the table.</p>
<p>*I first misread your screen name and thought it was fraggled, as in Fragglerock :D</p>
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<p>The impression I get from (admittedly from the parent’s posts) is that the former is closer to the situation. Perhaps the OP can clarify whether ASU would be pretty close to the others in the student’s point of view if money were no object.</p>
<p>But one more thing to consider about the money aspect: for any merit scholarships, is there a college GPA requirement to renew them?</p>
<p>OP: if your student chooses the free ride would you be willing to support some hobbies or EC’s? </p>
<p>Both of our kids chose less costly options (not 0). We have been able to support some of their other passions. We’re funding a couple of costly completely non college related activities. The ability to follow these particular interests and hobbies have lent a nice balance to their college experience. In addition…they will graduate with these other skills in their tool kit. And, along the way they were introduced to a whole different set of people and contacts.</p>
<p>Fascinating conversation. Many helpful comments and many judgmental comments questioning any parent’s character that considers sending their kid to a state school as if it’s child abuse. I think this charged debate reflects the insane college financing situation that we all find ourselves in. One could turn the above statement around. One’s kid could end up thinking their parent was a jerk or negligent by not clearly explaining the ramifications of different financial decisions. </p>
<p>Why does everyone think the OP is a mom? I am guessing it is a dad… but could be wrong. Most of the time in the past I think these types of threads are started by father’s, with the mom & kid having a preference for a smaller college and the dad saying “cheap or free State U is good enough”. I do not think it is child abuse at all to send your kid to State U. I think waiting until AFTER applications are in to start pushing for that option is what is wrong. He probably could have found more affordable options, including smaller schools that give higher amounts of merit if the money was the most important thing to you. It is the TIMING of you figuring out you don’t want to pay that makes me think you owe your son an apology. You have jerked him around by not doing your homework and thinking through your own parameters first. We see posts on this from the kid’s side pretty often in the spring, and the kids are very frustrated with parents who KNEW how much the colleges cost when the kids applied and didn’t lay out parameters on it… then when it gets right down to deciding, they tell (or strong arm) the kid into believing they only have one choice.</p>
<p>Also… you didn’t answer the question on Bard. Did he also get merit aid there? So it there another data point between $220K and free?</p>
<p>Maybe some parents tell a kid, “You can go to any school that you get into regardless of comparative finances, and we will only let you apply to schools that we know we are willing to pay full fare for.” At our house it is more like, “You need a mix of schools that calculate FA differently because we can estimate how it might go but we really don’t know until we get that envelope back.” When everything comes back then you do the cost/benefit analysis understanding that a good chunk of the “benefit” is subjective. When you have everything in front of you and possibly some unexpected offers you are comparing them side by side. At that point the question might be do you love school #1 $15k per year more than you love school #2.</p>
<p>If the ASU scholarship was not guaranteed based on stats at the time of application, they may have gone in expecting that to be an admit safety and been prepared to pay OOS tuition if need be. Then it would be easy . . . full pay at Wesleyan vs full pay OOS at ASU - if the money is there one can say "of course you will get more benefit for each extra $$$ at Wesleyan). The large scholarship changes the calculus though. How can it not?</p>
<p>The point re. how FA is calculated is very meaningful for us. We’ve saved for college (but probably not enough.). Our income is middling. General assets may be the sticking point…and because DH is already (sort-of) retired we’re at the stage where we’re more likely to be withdrawing funds from those assets rather than adding to them. I do not want to put our own retirement in jeopardy in order to pay for daughter’s undergraduate education. </p>
<p>My D applied to a full need + merit school that was her favorite by far and she ended up attending. Her mean mother made her apply to another full need + merit school that was comparable and she would have been willing to attend (in addition to others) knowing that the 2 schools calculate awards very differently. School #2 came back first and I said “Congratulations! You’re going to college!” School #1 came the next day and after a quick run of the numbers I was able to say “You can go here!” The packages were comparable but structured very differently. With shifting finances it would have been impossible to say which one would have been better over 4 years dollar for dollar but both were possible and the awards were close enough in scope that the value of “dream school” above the other was clear. In the case of OP there is an unexpected FA windfall that is causing them to rethink what they thought they knew. I don’t see how that is mean, and if it is tough luck. They may still decide on Wesleyan or one of the others, but I don’t get how it’s so wrong to look more closely at the ASU program and gather a bit more information while they wait for the final few envelopes to come in.</p>
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If you expected everybody to agree with your viewpoint, there wasn’t much point in posting. I think your characterization of the negative comments is a bit much.</p>
<p>Also:
I don’t know about percentages, but as I noted above, essentially every kid who goes to one of the more selective schools (like Wesleyan) has to make this decision, either before or after applying. Almost all of these kids could get substantial merit aid at many places, including some where it is automatic. While some families are indeed so extremely rich that cost is no object, a lot of others decide that an education at one of these places is worth it, even if it means some sacrifices of other things. </p>
<p>Anecdote: long ago, my father offered me $1000 cash if I would go to U.Va. (instate) instead of Yale. I didn’t take it. (I don’t think he was really serious, but who knows?)</p>
<p>I agree with Saintfan. Yes, there are NPCs. In some instances they do not work well for self-employed persons or special circumstances. Some NPCs reflect possible merit aid. Others do not. FA formulas differ among schools. And, it is difficult to predict merit aid in most cases. There are just so many variables that it is hard to predict outcomes. So you try to get your kid to cast a wide net, and to research and visit schools, and to demonstrate interest (while trying not to let them get too attached to any one school!) and to keep their options open until everything is on the table. Sometimes what’s on the table is unexpected and leads to tough choices that were not initially contemplated. If the admissions, FA, and merit games were straight forward and predictable, I doubt CC would exist. </p>
<p>It may well be true that what some of us are saying won’t be of much help to OP , because it’s mostly about what he should have done in the past. Still, it may help some people with younger kids. Talk through in detail the financial ramifications even before you make your college list.</p>
<p>Lsttt, some of us heard this sad tale many times before, from kids and parents. I am not hesitant to say that I do know that parents should carefully discuss finances early in the process. It’s possible, I suppose that the OP did this more than his posts suggest, or that this family was really surprised by the offer from ASU. But, as I said, if the kid was a good candidate for Wes, it was knowable that very good merit would be available elsewhere.</p>
<p>Okay, but the OP isn’t saying that he had this chat with his son about financial issues BEFORE applications went in. I agree that many families tell their kid that their options depend on the FA packages, and that is just fine. The OP has not indicated that he did this before applications went in – I get the impression that any discussion about it was “we have saved, apply where you want to apply”. And now he is backing off from that. I have no beef with anyone who has this discussion with their kids BEFORE applications go in OR if there is a big change in family situation around application time. My problem is with parents who don’t think it thru, and then strong arm the kids at the end because (IMHO) the parents slacked in their responsibilities – they didn’t figure out their own parameters or set any guidelines for their kids.</p>
<p>@IStttt, I don’t know why you would think I am out of touch with reality. As I mentioned above, I have been through this twice. My oldest kid ended up taking merit money and attending a LAC that was not the highest ranked school she got into. She liked the school a lot, and felt she could bloom there as well as any other school she was accepted to. I will add that her most expensive option was a full priced, well respected LAC, and her least expensive option was the neighboring state U flagship where we have reciprocity (also highly ranked). In that case, she picked an option that was in the middle cost wise and it worked out great for her (Phi Beta Kappa, great job after graduation, no debt upon graduation).</p>
<p>D2 is a different kid – (1) higher stats kid than D1, and (2) not as likely to bloom wherever she is planted. Finding good fit for her was hard. And I was willing to pay financially to do it. She ended up picking the 2nd most expensive school on her list, but is thriving there, and IMHO it is worth every penny. She is a kid who would be miserable at a large university. It is possible the OP’s son is the same – for us the choice was not just about money, it was also about fit. For my D2, all colleges are not equal. The OP is trying to rationalize that all the colleges on his son’s list are an equally good fit for his son, when it may not be so. Could I have twisted D2’s arm to pick one of her cheaper choices (she had GREAT merit aid at several LACs)? Yes. Would it have been right for her? No. She is taking out subsidized student loans as part of the choice to go to the more expensive school, too. Just saw her over spring break, and she thanked me (again) for allowing her to attend her college – her comment is that she can really be herself there, and that no other school on her list would have allowed that.</p>
<p>The OP says they have the money – he isn’t living paycheck to paycheck, and has mentioned no younger siblings that are following. Now maybe his kid is like my D1 and would bloom anywhere… but the kid who is attracted to Wes and Bard isn’t generally the ASU type.</p>
<p>And again… I think the OP is slanting the facts to fit the way he wants the discussion to go. Was there merit aid at Bard? Are there more data points between $220K and $0K?</p>
<p>We get it. College is expensive. But if the OP saves 220 grand, I still think the least he can do is buy the kid a car.</p>
<p>In the seven or so years I’ve been lurking and posting on CC there has been a change in overall feeling about college costs vs. benefits for all but the most “elite” universities.</p>
<p>When I first found CC, the vast majority of answers to a question like that posed by the OP would have been suggestions to have the kid attend the most prestigious/ highest ranked college and to find a way to make it work. Period. That the return on investment was worth taking out loans, using home equity, and giving up vacations, new cars, home improvements, and parental hobbies. Parents seemed to be willing to do everything to ensure their kids could attend the highest ranked college their kids were accepted to. </p>
<p>Year by year the advice seems to be changing. Parents are more cynical about the ROI of $60,000/year college costs for all but a shrinking number of universities.</p>
<p>So some members who have been on CC much, much longer than I have been are giving advice reflective of what was a more common mind set seven to ten years ago. Newer members look at the whole thing differently. At least that is how it seems to me. </p>
<p>I first came here looking for “Is it worth it?” kinds of threads as my oldest was beginning to look at colleges and we parents were looking at the price tags, so I have a history of reading the thoughts of more experienced parents. </p>
<p>Personally, we have gone with the flop sweat rule (see my post on the first page of this thread) and have found peace and financial well being. And our children have survived quite nicely. </p>
<p>Edit: “reading the thoughts”: not meaning mind reading, but reading what they had to say. And this post isn’t meant to be disrespectful of members who have been around, giving great advice, for years. I’m just trying to give some perspective for what seems to be very different points of view about colleges and costs.</p>
<p>Wow, it still amazes me how some posters are so mean-spirited on a site that is meant for support and sharing information rather than judgment. Kudos to the families that have managed to save enough for private full pay LACs and seem to know everything there is about the vagaries of merit and finaid. But not everyone is in that lofty position, hence they look to CC for some opinions from people who may have been in a similar position. </p>
<p>Frankly I am tired of “Don’t let your kid apply unless you KNOW you can afford it”. What does this really mean, that you can afford it with no impact whatsoever? Unless you are very wealthy this just isn’t the case for many families. If we went by this rule, we would have told our son not to apply anywhere at all. The fact is you just don’t know what will be offered and where. Many times a private college will end up roughly the same price as the public, or so I’ve read on this very site. So should you tell your kid not to even try? </p>
<p>We’ve been through this twice already with our eldest because after acceptances at Whitman, Oberlin, Putzer, good state flagship and a few others, he felt like he didn’t want to waste between 25k (flagship) and (35-47k) (others after merit awards) when he wasn’t sure what he wanted to study. </p>
<p>We are biased towards small LACs because of the usual reasons–the individual attention small classes etc and primise of finding your intellectual niche all of which will somehow jettison your child to an idyllic future. </p>
<p>But we believe college is what you make of it, and that most any student can have a fine experience at the flagship without compromising a family’s ability to provide siblings with their education when the time comes, or pay for grad school or have a financial leg up later in life. I know many kids who after an expensive LAC education end up nannying while the kid at the state school works at Google or goes to a great grade program. Your life isn’t over if you pick the full ride at state U or chose the cheaper school and you are not a bad or ignorant parent for weighing options. </p>
<p>The general population of CC seems to live in a rarified world where a 3.8 GPA is “low” and everyone is looking for that one magic idyllic dream school. But the fact is that the majority of college students attend community college or a public. </p>
<p>The OP is certainly not a “jerk” for wondering if it is wiser to spend 0 on undergrad vs. 220k (or even the " much lower" 160k, lol). </p>
<p>My first and last rant on CC. Will read only for amusement from here on.</p>
<p>Why do I judge that the OP has the money? Because he is offering it up for things like a house down payment for his kid later in life if he picks the cheaper college option. He isn’t going to be using this money for his own retirement, for example. You just quoted him yourself on this. And again… I know that many families don’t have the money, and obviously make the choices that make sense for them, which is just fine.</p>
<p>This parent waited until the last minute to say he doesn’t want to pay for this… if he thought it was so crazy, then why wasn’t it crazy when they were visiting colleges or his son was filling out applications? I have no objection to families who can’t or won’t pay for an expensive college option. What I object to is a parent who shirks their responsibility to figure out the finances earlier in the game than the month before decisions are due. This kid clearly didn’t apply to Wes to “see if he could get in”. He expected to be able to attend if he got in because his parents set that expectation. The only “my way” he didn’t do was to figure this out BEFORE letting his kid apply to (and get accepted to) college the parent doesn’t want him to attend.</p>
<p>One of my kids had a college on the list that I thought was not a good choice for various reasons (and one was because I felt the cost wasn’t worth the quality, but that was not the only factor). I asked my kid not to apply, but also said if she felt very strongly about it she could (and she could attend if she chose). She decided not to apply, but we had the discussion before the apps went in… not at the end of the road. She promised me she would not end up on an analyst couch someday talking about how her mom wouldn’t let her apply to her “dream school” – which it wasn’t anyway.</p>
<p>But again… it is the TIMING of the OP’s actions that I object to. So far he has not acknowledged that maybe he should have considered this earlier… it is all about how awful college costs are these days, like it is someone else’s fault he is in this situation. And… how about the Bard cost? And the spouse’s opinion on all this? Still unanswered questions… the OP wants you to take his side because he doesn’t want to share all the facts, I am guessing.</p>
<p>Well, intparent, you do seem to be quite generous with the OP’s money.</p>