If an applicants doesn't disclose an arrest/conviction, how could college find out?

<p>I think you need to ask not only an attorney in the state where the offense took place, but also a lawyer in the state where the college is located. **If you can only ask one, ask one in the state where the college is located. **</p>

<p>Harvard’s supplemental application states:</p>

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<p>UMichigan’s app asks:</p>

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<p>So, I guess in Michigan those juvenile records DO have to be disclosed. </p>

<p>UChicago’s application for visiting student status asks if you have ever been placed on probation. (I couldn’t get access to Uof C’s supplemental app). </p>

<p>I don’t think any college is going to check 50+ jurisdictions as to what expungement and “under oath” mean. Whether your application is false will be judged by the law of the state in which the college is located because that’s the state law they’ve checked to determine what it can ask. The common app’s formulation may be legal in every state–I assume that’s been researched. However, a quick check of a few schools indicated that the supps of most asked a question related to criminal actions. </p>

<p>I don’t know where MOWC got the info she quotes above, but “except under oath” is a huge loop hole. </p>

<p>The common app requires you to “certify” your answers and you acknowlege that you may be disciplined for shortcomings in your answer. Is that “under oath”? In some states, that may meet the legal definition of “under oath.” </p>

<p>It has nothing to do with the question asked here, but to get at least some professional licenses you must swear or affirm the truth of the statements you make on the application. That’s DEFINITELY under oath. Expungement may not cut it. And I’m not just talking about military, doctors and lawyers either.</p>

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<p>I’m not even a lawyer and I could never, ever in a million years encourage a student to say this to a college or on a job application. Ever. Maybe the military or the FBI or CIA or something might want to know if you’ve ever been arrested and I’m sure they would be clear about this but the rest of the world only cares if you’ve been “convicted” or “have a record.” This is just good common sense on so many levels.</p>

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<p>I’d never ever do this either. You can get this info from a lawyer. Colleges and business want to know what they ask…no more…no less. They think long and hard about how they “word” this stuff to protect themselves as well as applicants. There’s such a thing as too much information.</p>

<p>^^^^Good advice, speihei. I also cringe when I see people giving medical advice and/or recommending medications or treatments in response to questions. What might be a benign medication or supplement for one person could have dangerous consequences for another person, depending on their medical history and current medications.</p>

<p>Attorneys are hard to get ahold of and cost a lot of money - probably $500-1000. It isn’t as good advice as it seems.</p>

<p>^^^^If a college acceptance or large merit scholarship is on the line, it might be money well spent.</p>

<p>To say nothing of what might happen if the student fails to disclose, the info is discovered, and the university begins disciplinary hearings to expel him. At that point, you probably would seek legal advice. Any money already paid to the college would be lost if the student is expelled.</p>

<p>This discussion gives a glimpse at why advice on some legal issues can involve a fair amount of attorney time. This is a more complicated issue than it might seem, but capable of resolution once the specific circumstances are spelled out and analyzed.</p>

<p>Yeah, but it costs nothing to simply disclose the event that happened.</p>

<p>Unless it’s something really bad (murder, child rape, high risk sex offender), I doubt that they would prevent you from getting in. And if you get rejected by a college, it’s not the end of the world. There are lots of colleges that don’t do background checks.</p>

<p>I hear you, but if my son was applying to schools where multiple equally qualified applicants were vying for each spot, and I had firmly resolved that the matter in question was not being sought by the application, I know exactly what I would not do.</p>

<p>^^ What he said.</p>

<p>I’ll offer a different perspective. I don’t think the people who make the decisions on admission also review the criminal record as part of that decision. I’m pretty sure that the decision is made whether to admit and then a different person conducts the background check and determines whether that person’s background passes or fails. </p>

<p>I have no sources to back this up, but I am quite confident in that opinion.</p>

<p>Very, very few background checks are done by colleges.</p>

<p>Admissions may not go out and do a background check – but we are in such an interconnected world these days. All you need is student to be from Smallville or the 300 block of 158th Avenue and have the brother-in-law to the admissions officer be the Smallville cop or 158th Ave neighborhood gossip and news that you thought was private or expunged is being shared. The more spectacular the deed, the MORE likely a connection could be made. </p>

<p>True stories: We lived on the island of Saipan (north of Guam). A friend of mine was a Basque and she was traveling home to Spain for a wedding. She was taking her three tiny children with her. “How will you manage” I asked. “I will pray!” she replied. I was pretty darn sceptical of that approach but I wished her well. She and kids took the one hour flight from Saipan to Guam. She and kids debark in the Guam airport and wait for the next flight to cross the Pacific. Down the tarmac come a bevy of nuns. They turn out to be Basque nuns from near her village. They assist with the kids the entire rest of the journey. </p>

<p>Also true: We got off a plane in New Delhi and went to get our luggage. We saw a man who looked a bit confused trying to find the luggage area. It was our professor that we had known from several years previously. We helped him collect his luggage and find a taxi for his hotel. </p>

<p>I’m still not sure if prayers are answered but I am convinced it can be a very small world.</p>

<p>I wonder if admissions might not do a simple google search, even if they don’t do a background check. Often, local papers list convictions and even arrests which may end up on search engines if they have an online edition.</p>

<p>curious what the differences might be with a slightly different scenario–</p>

<p>18 yr old hs senior is arrested for marijuana and alcohol in his car, and is currently in pretrial program, and told if all goes well with urine screens etc his case will be expunged. this occurred after apps were in so didn’t lie on anything. is there any need for him to tell colleges that may admit him. this friend’s attorney told her that college housing does in fact run background checks, and it may become a problem down the road if discovered. they are praying it is expunged prior to starting as freshman in the fall… thoughts?</p>

<p>Everybody should read WesternMDdad’s posts again. He saved me lots of typing. (Good job, bro.)</p>

<p>To (partially) recap the parts of the thread that I can agree with (and elaborate on):</p>

<p>Check with a criminal attorney in your state (or the state the judicial action took place, if other than your home state).</p>

<p>Ain’t none of us lawyers stupid enough to give legal advice on a message board. ;)</p>

<p>Juvenile adjudications of “delinquency” are not the same as “criminal convictions”. Some actions taken by a court against juveniles CAN be convictions of criminal law. Sometimes this process is called “certification as an adult”. (The applicable NY law is discussed by a poster above.) Just because one is of juvenile age doesn’t mean he/she’s tried as a juvenile. Know the difference.</p>

<p>Arrests are not convictions of anything.</p>

<p>Un-adjudicated or deferred adjudications are NOT convictions of anything, anywhere.</p>

<p>Now for something I disagree with : </p>

<p>The idea that any applicant is held to disclosure under the laws of a foreign jurisdiction that makes something a “criminal conviction” (and hence required to be reported) when it wasn’t in the jurisdiction it occurred is …just not good law, but again that’s just my humble, internet, non-legal advice, un-paid, “no attorney-client relationship is established by this post”, opinion. ;)</p>

<p>Ultimately whether one does or does not disclose their arrest or conviction is up to the applicant. Depending on the school and/or state, it may or may not be fraudulent to not report; regardless it is, or at least it should be, a heavy weight on the applicant’s conscience should s/he not disclose.</p>

<p>That said, you should be mindful that many colleges and/or universities can and do suspend, expel, or even retroactively revoke a student’s admission if they find that the student lied on his/her application. Private colleges and universities can even retroactively retract a student’s diploma, after they’ve graduated, should they find reason to do so (see the case of Charles Yoo at MIT about a decade ago, though not related to his application at all, if you’re curious). Of course this depends in large measure on the nature of the crime(s) committed and what has occurred in the meantime, but it does happen.</p>

<p>Those who are arguing voraciously that juvenile youthful offender programs don’t qualify under the question’s wording, you best think twice. Does no one remember the case of Gina Grant, who had her admission to Harvard rescinded/revoked in 1995 after it was found she lied on the conviction question on her application? (Her lawyers later unsuccessfully argued that she was processed as an “adjudicated delinquent,” and thus had answered truthfully - I don’t remember what college she ended up at subsequently).</p>

<p>Lastly, if the application in question is a law school application, lying or “omitting information” can have lifelong consequences. While not applicable to every state, I know that law schools in many states are required to keep copies of enrolling students’ law school applications for review by various state bar associations should they inquire about them or even require them. Several states’ bar associations do look at these documents - for example, the Texas bar requires a copy of a student’s law school application. Answering “no” on a law school application and later answering “yes” on a bar application could result in failing to be admitted to the bar - which could effectively end one’s legal career. This INCLUDES any convictions that may be purged, sealed, or dismissed, INCLUDING juvenile offenses under this category. Lying on an undergraduate admissions application could also affect the process - for example, the Massachusetts Bar rules state, “There shall be a rebuttable presumption that nondisclosure of a material fact on the candidate’s application(s) to the bar, law school or undergraduate school is prima facie evidence of the lack of good character.”</p>

<p>From the Tulane Law School: “**This includes offenses which resulted in purged, sealed, obliterated, dismissed, or destroyed records, regardless of whether you have been told that you need not disclose any such event. ** Many state bar authorities require that the law school provide a copy of your admission application when you apply for admission to a state bar. If state bar authorities note any discrepancy between answers to questions on the admission application and responses to questions on the state bar application (for example, in response to questions about criminal or disciplinary proceedings, or in response to questions about previous enrollment at educational institutions), they will investigate further. In some cases, discrepancies of this sort have caused serious problems for recent law school graduates seeking bar admission. Applicants are cautioned to provide full and accurate responses to all questions on the law school application.” (bolding emphasis my own)</p>

<p>Why risk it? Disclose and explain. There’s a good likelihood the information will somehow reach the admissions office in any event. Better to be proactive and explanatory.</p>

<p>For those who may have forgotten the name “Gina Grant” [Admit</a> Gina Grant | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1995/4/10/admit-gina-grant-pif-ever-there/]Admit”>Admit Gina Grant | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson)</p>

<p>It appears that Gina may have lied/withheld the truth to a direct question as to her mother’s death in her admissions interview. I can’t find a court case filed by Grant over the rescinding of the acceptance.</p>

<p>Disclose what is required to be disclosed, and as to the rest (that which is not required to be disclosed), keep yo mouth shut. JMO.</p>

<p>I am a big believer in honesty and disclosure, and I would insist that my child be upfront with her/his school. In addition to engaging in fraud, who wants to live with the sword of Damacles above his/her head? </p>

<p>I have heard that colleges do run a background check when they have final enrollment/commitment. Do all colleges run such checks; I do not know. But my feeling is that a progressive, compassionate college would forgive a historical transgression, especially were there accountability and rehabilitation (or whatever appropriate avenue were pursued), if we are not talking about some serial crime, here.</p>

<p>I know of a scenario where an already-18 year old has a DUI, post-acceptance, and is not disclosing it to the college. I hope that this person is not jeopardizing his/her acceptance. I cannot imagine that most schools will not work with a kid with a historical drug/criminal offense–possibly insist on drug/alcohol testing or a psych. evaluation but allow the applicant to attend, nonetheless.</p>

<p>After all, a teen can be the most impetuous and impulsive and non-thinking creature. The pre-frontal cortex–responsible for decision-making, impulse control, socially correct behavior, etc.,–continues to develop until age 25, and I would hope that colleges would take such a thing into consideration before they invoked a Draconian consequence.</p>

<p>OP here–I’m not a lawyer, so I’ll try to be be more clear: I am asking about a conviction for a property crime committed by a juvenile, now over 18 and has applied to college using the Common App. The crime did not happen at the school and was not subject to disciplinary action there. The high school claims they are not notified of arrests or convictions involving their students, so I am guessing the guidance counselor would not admit knowing anything.</p>

<p>The student did not reveal the conviction in the Common App. Are juvenile records always sealed, and if so, is it then impossible for colleges to ascertain the existence of such records? Or if family arranged for records to be expunged, then is there no way for colleges to determine history of a conviction? </p>

<p>Assuming colleges care–but maybe some don’t? One local college admissions officer told me his college ignored such history, but his is a nonselective institution. Still, this surprised me. </p>

<p>The cost of routine background checks on potential admits would be prohibitive, I suppose. And would they even turn up sealed or expunged juvenile records?</p>