If I get a 5 on the AP BIO exam, what do I take?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
1

<p>Hey current students,</p>

<p>I plan on doing premed at ND starting next year. I am a bit confused though regarding AP credits. Sorry for so many questions...</p>

<p>1.) Notre Dame has two 2-semester/1 year Biology courses - 155-156 - which is Biological Sciences I and II and 201-202- which is General Biology I and II...first off, whats the difference?</p>

<p>2.) If I get a 5 on the AP exam, Notre Dame's site says "Notre Dame Course Credited: Biological Sciences 20201 and 20202- which is General Bio" Does that mean I get to skip General Bio 1 and 2 (with labs) or does that mean I am placed into General Bio 201-202?</p>

<p>3.) If it means I skip 201-202, does that mean I can jump into "250. Classical and Molecular Genetics" (Fall) and 241. Molecular Cell Biology (Spring)" - Is this course I can take Freshman year if I get a 5 on the AP exam?? The problem is that in the course descriptions, it states " This course is restricted to Biological Sciences and Biochemistry majors only." How would I know anything about what Ill major in the 1st year of studies?</p>

<p>4.) Is this advisable to use my AP credits</p>

<p>5.) How would you rate Notre Dames premed in terms of difficulty, cutthroatness, and grade inflation/deflation?</p>

<p>Thanks for your help.</p>

2

<p>Well I will address item 5 first off...I spent two years as a Biochem major, a fact that I am willing to admit. Left the college of science for several personal reasons, the main one being I found that I no longer was enjoying science classes. I was still good at them, I just didn't look forward to class anymore. Now considering biochem took physics with the premeds, and had several other classes where we could cross paths - ie Molecular cell biology...I do have several thoughts on them. They tend to be the "grade grubbers" of the class. They would tend to be the ones who asked the question: "so what should I study for the test?" Or after the test to be complaining and trying to get extra points on partial credit questions. They also tended to mob professors before/after class. Personally I think the premed option is the track people use to get try to get to med school while doing an easier major in A&L or science. You do less science work than you would if you were a bio major or a biochem major, that's for sure (in terms of total science classes taken for your bachelors). I've heard professors from college of science argue that a BS in Biology is better than being premed. </p>

<p>***the above are DEFINITELY my own personal views. I just have a few issues with premeds who are doing the preprofessional track. I know plenty who I am friends with. I know plenty who are Bio or Biochem planning on going to med school. In general though I find premed to be a way of doing the minimum amount of effort and still planning to go to med school.</p>

3

<p>Now your real question though is about the way the typical ND premed or science student handles taking the BIO classes when they get a 5 on the AP. </p>

<p>There are two possible options as far as Bio goes. </p>

<ul>
<li>BIO 10161 and BIO 10162 (formerly BIO 151, BIO 152)</li>
<li>BIO 20201 and BIO 20202 (formerly BIO 201, BIO 202)</li>
</ul>

<p>I've heard a variety of reasons for the transition. Including the course numbering changed at the end of last school year because in certain depts there were no longer any course numbers available, you had some classes that would denoted by the three numbers and a letter. After all the course numbers can't be recycled that quickly something like a "ten-year" cycle I was told, because of records that have to be kept....there were other reasons like the conversion from our online registration system from a good one to this present one which is less than stellar...</p>

<p>Now then that was background you want answers. Bio 10161, 10162 is normally taken by freshman who plan on majoring in Chem, Bio or Biochem. The 20201 and 20202 is taken by those people who decide to become a bio major their sophomore year (very few) and all the A&L and Science pre-professional students. A five on the AP would get you credit for the 20201 and 20202 series. If you've taken the 10161 and 10162 you are not eligible to take 20201 and 20202 or conversely students passing 20201/20202 can not take 10161/10162. </p>

<p>I will tell you what almost everyone here was advised when I was a freshman: and this was if you planned to be a bio major, a biochem major or a premed major. You should plan on RETAKING Biology and Chemistry at the college level even if you have the AP credit to test out of it. This is apparently because college's want to see you capable of doing it at the college level and how you perform in a college course lab setting. I doubt this advice has changed much since a couple of years ago. Best advice to you would be to look at the dept websites on the ND website and to find the email contact info for preprofessional dept that interests you and contact one of the advisors directly. They would be the best source to answer your questions.</p>

4

<p>I would help out but I really am not sure since when I was a pre-med I was at Creighton University :). If I had to guess I would say that the 5 would wipe out General Bio I but that is purely a guess on my part.</p>

<p>I definately think that you use your AP credits because they show that you know the material and not using them would cause you to be bored while you re-took those courses and also give you less freedom with your schedule later (freedom I am enjoying since I am a junior and 1 class away from finishing my psych major). The only way I wouldn't send them in is if I wasn't sure I knew the material or if I thought I needed the GPA boost, but that being said I think you should submit them.</p>

<p>As for pre-med I think the preprofs (as well as the science majors) work their butts off. This is an outsider's view but I don't think it is as cuthroat as Creighton was but Creighton was a pre-med factory where they boasted of forcing 90% of pre-meds out of the program. I don't see ND's program being like that; I think it is tough but they want you to succeed.</p>

<p>I know a lot of preprof-psychology majors and I have no problem with it at all (unlike Nemo it sounds like). Would they be better prepared for med school if they were a science major...well, maybe or maybe not. Regardless, they will be prepared because you have to be for the MCAT and you have to be if you are going to get into a decent med school. You are going to take the required science courses and as such you will be prepared and not be behind. Yes, you could be a bit more ahead by taking science for all of your electives and having that be your major, but what if you don't want all that stress? What if you aren't completely in love with science? Honestly, if I had a choice, I would rather have my doctor be like a lot of my friends who are pre-prof psych majors because then they not only understand the science and the medicine but they understand the people...a lot of doctors don't understand and can't relate with their patients! That is my view though.</p>

<p>With pre-med, while more science may help, the main thing as I understand it to be is that you get in the courses that are required and other than that it is up to you. As such, study what you enjoy; study what you love. If you love people and you want to be a doctor because of that, great, study psychology with it. If the human spleen is about as exciting as it gets for you (a friend of mine told me that was the case for her, so I am not making this up) then that is great, take the science route. I don't see being A&L Preprof as taking the easy way out but rather an opportunity to be pre-med but also study the things you want to study and possibly have less stress. </p>

<p>The nice thing is that you have the option to follow your heart on what you want to study. It may seem like the easy way out to science majors but I guarantee you that there are some science majors who would say one of my upper level psychology classes, or an upper level english class was far harder than any science course they had. It all depends on what interests you and what you love. My advice is while it is important to know what it takes to get into med school follow your heart with your studies...it may lead you away from pre-med like it did for me. If you just blindly go into it assuming that being a doctor is the only thing for you and you don't explore or have an open mind you may find yourself in med school, but given the nature of med school, I think it would be very difficult to finish. </p>

<p>College is about finding yourself and your passions and to study something that you love so that you will never "work" a day in your life. That is what I think it is at least. If you are miserable, it probably just means that it isn't for you. I did well as a pre-med at Creighton (well enough I still had the GPA to transfer to ND) but I hated it as well. It isn't worth it to go through college (and then life) doing something you hate doing...it just isn't worth it. Something to think about.</p>

5

<p>Okay, disregard part of my rant on the AP credits, I think Nemo has more accurate info than I did given the fact that it is Bio and I think in psychology terms. The rest of my post, or rant, still should be good however.</p>

6

<p>Okay I do not actively dislike premeds. I know of grad TA's who had to do the premed sections of orgo. We heard from our TA's who were friends with the other ones (and btw our TA's found the following info very funnny) fthat the premed orgo TA's who were keeping lists of people who they thought had no business going on to med school; or alternatively who they would never go to if the premeds made it through med school and became a doctor. Their rational was that if these sophomore premeds couldn't hack orgo, how would they handle med-school. I will be the first to admit that their argument is a bit shaky. That is an example of disliking premeds. </p>

<p>Now a lot of the reason there is any tension between premeds and hard science majors stems from the fact that the premeds tend to reinforce through actions and comments the stereotype that they are doing only the minimum to get into med school. Such as the fact that they have a different (and yes easier...) class then either the orgo for Bio, Biochem or Chem majors. I know of a few really motivated premeds who did choose to do the harder orgo section though...in general though a lot of premed majors tend to be focusing with getting through the classes with the best grade and not so concerned with learning material for knowledge, but rather so they can do well on exams.</p>

7

<p>Hey guys,</p>

<p>I guess, I wanted to go back to my original question...do you think it would be advisable to use my ap credits and skip those "BIO 20201 and BIO 20202" courses and jump right into Genetics (Fall) and Molecular Biology (Spring)? Would you reccommend that path? The thing is, I am going to do premed and premed requires only 1 year of Biology. </p>

<p>Some people say use your AP credits because sometimes "upper level courses" may be easier, grade inflated, less-weeding out type courses as opposed to the introductory courses. Also, they repeat some of the introductory material in the upper level course as well. Thus, it may be best to use the AP credits on my part. I guess I wanted to ask you guys, current ND students, a favor to ask any of your friends who are in those courses or have experience/knowledge about them and help me out compare the introductory vs genetics/mol bio path...I guess the thing is that </p>

<p>I am 95% I am going to ND and I am taking the AP Bio exam...the good thing is that I have some extra time to do some tutoring and I wanted to prepare early so I hope to get some info cleared on what decision I should make. I mean outside of the external "be passionate" or "work really hard and you shoul dbe fine" advice, which I really appreciate, I simply wanted to get the nitty-gritty details about these courses and I hope you guys, by the way are so helpful on this forum, could really help me out...Thanks a lot!</p>

8

<p>Okay well I'll address your message.</p>

<ul>
<li>STOP using the 3 digit course numbers and switch to the 5 digit ones. The 3 digit ones are gone. If you are using a catalog from ND that has the 3 digit ones then I would try to get my hands on a current one. Some of the specifc major websites on ND's page are still updating from the conversion I think.<br></li>
</ul>

<p>Now then:
1. you CANNOT take Molecular Cell Biology until you have completed Chem 20247 (or the equivalent pre-med 1st semester orgo 20235). This is because of the material you have to learn. So don't plan on doing Mol Bio until 2nd semester sophomore year. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>The fundamentals of genetics class does not show a pre-requisit science class when I looked it up on the online course registration (part of the ND website you can't get on unfortunately). This doesn't mean that you would be eligible to take the class though...</p></li>
<li><p>Then there is the issue like I mentioned in my previous posts. I will repeat myself again in this one. There is no guarentee that your advisors will like you placing out of Freshman Bio (the 10161) or in sophomore year the Bio 20201. It was stressed to the premeds that AP credit was not a good thing to use to avoid retaking the core premed science classes. I suspect this is partially because some of this material will show up on the MCAT. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>In reality your best, safest and wisest option is to contact via email one of the advisors for either pre-professional program or alternatively in the Biology dept and solicit their opinion as to what is the wisest course of action for you to take. My information is what I've seen through personal experience and talking with premeds. I never intended to go to med school, so I never really bothered to worry so much about some of their unique issues.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

9

<p>Let me reassure you that the upper level science classes here are not easier than the lower entry level ones. I took Molecular Cell Biology in my Junior Year even though I no longer was in the College of Science (it happened to be of interest to me and I had all the pre-reqs in place to take it). This being the case, I can assure you that it was just as hard, if not harder than the Freshman Bio 155/156 (now called 10161 and 10162).</p>

10

<p>Can I use my AP credits to skip Bio 20201 and take the course "Vertebrate Physiology" or "Cell Biology" -both Fall Semester Lab courses....? Is it ok to do that? I understand that I cannot take Mol Cell Bio because it requires Organic Chemistry, but can I take those two courses, assuming that I skip General Bio?</p>

11

<p>I'll try to explain this:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Cell Biology has the same pre-reqs as Molecular Cell Biology...that's likely because they are equivalent courses. By this I mean that I know there was discussion when I was getting out of College of Science and moving to a different major of setting up separate tracks of the Cell Bio course to more appropriately gear it for different majors. It looks as though that is what they have done. So no you cannot take this class either, not until you've done at least one semester of organic chemistry. You will need some of the knowledge learned in orgo, as I mentioned in my previous post.</p></li>
<li><p>Vertebrate Physiology you might be able to get into. I see nothing that would prohibit it except for the fact that normally people are juniors when they take it...</p></li>
</ul>

<p>You need to recognize that you will likely need to get permission from either your FYS advisor or a advisor over in College of Science to jump to upper level science, presuming you meet all the pre-reqs. I know people who got 5's on the AP bio exam who were in what was then BIO 155,156 with me Freshman year. Course I also know of someone who took orgo as a freshman. Decisions to be made about advanced coursework will be dependent upon you and your advisors coming to a conclusion, they just don't do whatever you ask of them....Again I will reiterate, EMAIL either one of the FYS points of contact or try emailing someone over in the Biology or Pre-professional program office to see if you can get your question answered by the Pro's.</p>