If JHU is such an amazing school for pre-meds...

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
21

<p>"Of course! But how would you feel if you didn't get that letter? I take it that it wouldn't feel good." </p>

<p>sakky if there are such a high percentage of students attending med school compared w/ similar tier colleges, than we can argue it in two ways:
1) jhu's weeding factor is going too easy or similar tier colleges are somehow discouraging applicants from applying like jhu<br>
2) Or we can assume that the reason that the % of grads attending med school is high is because the % of premeds there were high...but then we draw to the question of why only sakky realized the fault that jhu has and why everyone else was so idiotic to still go there</p>

<p>sakky, med schools do not require recs from a committee but if your undergrad has a committee they will expect a rec and if you do not provide one they will question why you are not providing one. And also i think the committee tells the student if they r willing to write a rec...and if the committee refuses, and the student continues to ask for one than the committee writes a bad rec (check on this sentence...not quite positive how the whole thing works lol..but i am certain the committe will not write a bad rec w/o first letting you know it is going to be bad lol) students can still apply w/o a rec but med schools know that jhu has a committee so they will question the applicant </p>

<p>sakky, then the purpose of the recommendation will be pointless if the school recommended everyone at the same degree</p>

<p>Now time to flame jhu hehe...spe07, not quite sure about the mean gpa, but according to other jhu students, the med committe usually writes for students, not alumni, that have around a 3.4+ gpa...which is quite scary lol..now brings me to the question of how jhu still has such a large % of its grads attending med school? does jhu have crazy inflation or is it becoming more like duke in that more and more applicants are alumni?</p>

22

<p>But, the JHU premed committee is the most respected of its kind, and this committee is one of the reasons Hopkins students end up at the best medical schools in the country. Hopkins students with a good GPA and a good recomendation do EXTREMELY well in medical school acceptances. And Sakky, you didn't take into account the number of those sub-par GPA holders who applied to osteopathic med schools over allopathic med schools. And their admit rate to medschool is only 61%.
The fact is, if you go to Hopkins and get a bad GPA don't apply to allopathic med schools. Most of this talk about bad recommendation comes from students with sub-3.0 GPAs applying to schools they're not qualified for. What can the committee do? Write a good reccomendation and, if the student gets in, worry about if he's performing or not? If that student were to apply to a osteopathic program, there would be no doubt as to whether the committee would realign with the osteopathic school's requirements. But so few Hopkins will actually, if unqualified for an MD program, go running to the DO. But, this withstanding, I'm sure that Hopkins students with low GPAs still do better than Berkeley students with low GPAs.
But, it's all about the committee, right? Well, the committee is a reason why, just like the law school committee, a large portion of the class every year get's into the top professional schools in their respectove fields, and sometimes with lower GPAs than the school's median. The committee is so respected, the medical (or law) schools will admit lower GPA's (but good MCATs) due to the recommendation of the committee. For example, there are students with 3.5-3.6 getting into the top medical schools--schools with 3.7-3.8 GPA medians, because of A) The experience Hopkins afforded them (experience which are incomparable to almost all other schools), and B) The committee's recommendation.
You can twist it any way you like--you can make it sound cruel, unfair or stupid, but Hopkins prides itself on being one of the few schools left still renowned for its rigorous academics. And stop making it sound like if you're not in the top half of the class your're screwed-- the majority of all the pre-med students benefit GREATLY from the committee.
And,most, if not all, medical schools know and appreciate the Hopkins letter.</p>

23

<p>3.4 is more like the mean GPA for students accepted to medical schools. You'll get in somewhere decent with that GPA from Hopkins. Don't worry.</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
it is not necessary to have a committee submit a rec

[/quote]

As you'll discover during the secondary process, if your school has such a committee, you are required to submit a recommendation from them. I suppose there could be some medical schools out there that do not have this recommendation -- this is backtracking from what I've previously said, now that I think about it, but that's okay -- but attempting to submit an application without a "Committee" letter when your school has such a committee goes against what these schools ask for.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
sakky if there are such a high percentage of students attending med school compared w/ similar tier colleges, than we can argue it in two ways:
1) jhu's weeding factor is going too easy or similar tier colleges are somehow discouraging applicants from applying like jhu
2) Or we can assume that the reason that the % of grads attending med school is high is because the % of premeds there were high...but then we draw to the question of why only sakky realized the fault that jhu has and why everyone else was so idiotic to still go there

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, the premise of this argument is, at this time, unclear. Does JHU really have a high percentage of its students attending med-school, relative to peer schools? Note, I'm not just talking about those who apply and get in. You would also have to factor in those students who wanted to go to med-school but didn't even apply because they didn't think they'd get in. You would also have to add in some factor to account for those students who flunked out. The 6-year graduation rate is 88% and while obviously not all of the students that comprise the remaining 12% flunked out (as some might have dropped out in good standing, and others might have transferred to another school), I have to imagine that some of them flunked out. </p>

<p>
[quote]
2) Or we can assume that the reason that the % of grads attending med school is high is because the % of premeds there were high...but then we draw to the question of why only sakky realized the fault that jhu has and why everyone else was so idiotic to still go there

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, first off, I am HARDLY the only one to realize what's going on. As you can see in this thread, several people have already weighed in to express their discomfort at the JHU policy. So I am far from alone.</p>

<p>But to your point, as to why students might choose to go to JHU anyway, let's keep in mind who we're talking about here. We're basically talking about 17-18 year old kids. Come on, when you're that age, you're generally pretty reckless. You think you're invincible. You think nothing bad will ever happen to you. If you're JHU-caliber, you've clearly been a pretty good student in high school and so you may simply be unable to fathon ever experiencing academic difficulties. </p>

<p>It's one thing to "know", at a cerebral level, that something might be dangerous. It's quite another thing to have the capability to properly factor in that danger. For example, some of the most brilliant people that I know also smoke. Now, I'm quite sure that they knew that smoking was addictive and dangerous back when they decided to take it up. But they took it up anyway, and now, unsurprisingly, they're addicted and can't stop. </p>

<p>
[quote]
sakky, med schools do not require recs from a committee but if your undergrad has a committee they will expect a rec and if you do not provide one they will question why you are not providing one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, reread my post. Like I said, I am not saying that no letter should be provided. Rather, if you truly can't support a particular candidate, then just provide him with a standard form letter talking about the school in a generic sense. But there is no need to sabotage the guy's chances. </p>

<p>
[quote]
But, the JHU premed committee is the most respected of its kind, and this committee is one of the reasons Hopkins students end up at the best medical schools in the country. Hopkins students with a good GPA and a good recomendation do EXTREMELY well in medical school acceptances. And Sakky, you didn't take into account the number of those sub-par GPA holders who applied to osteopathic med schools over allopathic med schools. And their admit rate to medschool is only 61%.
The fact is, if you go to Hopkins and get a bad GPA don't apply to allopathic med schools. Most of this talk about bad recommendation comes from students with sub-3.0 GPAs applying to schools they're not qualified for. What can the committee do? Write a good reccomendation and, if the student gets in, worry about if he's performing or not? If that student were to apply to a osteopathic program, there would be no doubt as to whether the committee would realign with the osteopathic school's requirements. But so few Hopkins will actually, if unqualified for an MD program, go running to the DO. But, this withstanding, I'm sure that Hopkins students with low GPAs still do better than Berkeley students with low GPAs.
But, it's all about the committee, right? Well, the committee is a reason why, just like the law school committee, a large portion of the class every year get's into the top professional schools in their respectove fields, and sometimes with lower GPAs than the school's median. The committee is so respected, the medical (or law) schools will admit lower GPA's (but good MCATs) due to the recommendation of the committee. For example, there are students with 3.5-3.6 getting into the top medical schools--schools with 3.7-3.8 GPA medians, because of A) The experience Hopkins afforded them (experience which are incomparable to almost all other schools), and B) The committee's recommendation.
You can twist it any way you like--you can make it sound cruel, unfair or stupid, but Hopkins prides itself on being one of the few schools left still renowned for its rigorous academics. And stop making it sound like if you're not in the top half of the class your're screwed-- the majority of all the pre-med students benefit GREATLY from the committee.
And,most, if not all, medical schools know and appreciate the Hopkins letter.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, none of that actually addresses the point at hand, which is, what should happen to those students who the committee does NOT deem worthy of a good recommendation. My answer is that the committee should simply give them a form letter so that they can fulfill their committee letter requirement. But you don't have to give them a poor rec. Like I said, if you can't say anything good about somebody, don't say anything at all.</p>

<p>Your response is basically a paean to the fact that those JHU students who perform well will go on to achieve great things. I have never disputed this. My question has always been - what about those students who don't do well? If you don't want to help them, fine, but you don't have to go out of your way to hurt them either. They're already in bad enough shape as it is. So what is to be gained by hurting their chances even further?</p>

26

<p>-sakky, it does not matter, look at it more simply, multiply grad% immediately after 4 yrs w/ med school attendence% and that number is higher than any other school which provided data to us news. If that is the end result due to jhu's writing disapproving recs, probably all schools should adopt it soon, look at the benefit the recs are providing for all those other students, the greater majority. </p>

<p>"what should happen to those students who the committee does NOT deem worthy of a good recommendation. My answer is that the committee should simply give them a form letter so that they can fulfill their committee letter requirement. But you don't have to give them a poor rec. Like I said, if you can't say anything good about somebody, don't say anything at all."
-sakky, if the committee does not disapprove of anyone, how can it truly approve of anyone?...in order to judge someone as overly qualified, one must also judge someone as underqualified...although, it is a pity that those small minority of students who are underqualified will not receive rec letters or will receive bad recs, the greater good for the majority is accomplished through this sacrifice->the largest amnt of grads attending med school immediately following 4 yrs of undergrad (w/ exception for the schools that did not report their grads info)</p>

<p>"If you don't want to help them, fine, but you don't have to go out of your way to hurt them either. They're already in bad enough shape as it is. So what is to be gained by hurting their chances even further?"
-because their chances are already so low that sending a bad rec or refusing a rec will most likely make no difference...but the benefits of sending bad recs and refusing recs is a greater benefit for the rest of the school and its grads.</p>

<p>NOW...time to flame jhu, coolguyusa, no, that is not the mean but rather a suggested number by the advisers, they suggest you to meet that...and supposedly if you don;t, it becomes difficult to get a good rec unless you become a alumni in which case...the gpa can be lower. sigh...so does jhu really have inflation or how does it send so many grads to med school when it seems like its so difficult to get a good rec unless the classes have inflation in which case spe07 would be right.</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
They're already in bad enough shape as it is. So what is to be gained by hurting their chances even further?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This where we get into that huge conflict of interest between the student and the committee. (and I want to be sure that everyone understands, I'm against committees at ALL schools, not just JHU - don't get it twisted.)</p>

<p>If you're a student with a less than stellar academic record, and you know that you're going to get a poor recommendation, how likely are you to continue the application process? You know you're in a world of hurt already, and then this letter steamrolls you even further...at some point there's a wake up call and you realize that maybe you should be exploring other options, and you decide not to apply. Thus, the poor recommendation has caused someone not likely to get in to medical school in the first place not to even apply, and the school (again, ANY school with a committee, not just JHU) gets the benefit of not having that person apply and bring down the school's high medical school acceptance rate, which they then use to attract a new bunch of unsuspecting HS seniors.</p>

28

<p>=/ the common high school senior i think will know that med school acceptance rate is worthless info. however, the committee exists i believe to help support the majority of the students and to help them...because helping them is their main role-it is these graduates who will define the school in the future.</p>

<p>sakky, you care too much for the means of achieving something, look at the ends it's so much easier</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
I'm against committees at ALL schools

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My committee, at least, didn't screen. They were our best advocates.</p>

30

<p>What exactly is the GPA cutoff in order to get the letter? I see 2.8 thrown around. Is that just hypothetical or is that the actual min GPA?</p>

31

<p>personally, I feel that when you spend a ton of money to go to a school, you're entitiled to policies that benefit you, the individual student, rather than ones that benefit the school and the high acheiving students at your expense. Numerous other schools that are just as successful at getting their undergrads into med school do not have such screens in place, meaning that the only reason for continuing such a controversial policy must be that the school derives a significant benefit from it, in this case an inflation in its placement rate by effectively preventing weaker applicants from applying.</p>

<p>This argument in favor of the majority deeply concerns me. If ONE student would have been accepted to med school, any med school were it not for the negative letter of recommendation, then it means that the school has failed in its duty to that student, and that the policy is fundamentally unjust. Because students who get negetive letters probably don't apply at all, there is little way to see if this has occured, but the possibility alone is enough to ruin the credibility of the system, especially in lieu of the success of JHU's peer institutions that lack such a screen.</p>

32

<p>If the actual min GPA is 2.8, I would be even more concerned, as here at least there is the occasional student who gets in somewhere with such a low gpa (rarely of course)</p>

33

<p>Something that is getting wildly twisted here is the correlation between getting a good rec and having a good GPA. Getting a good rec does not simply presuppose a good GPA. Students with poorer GPAs get into med school from hopkins because of their total application.
Further, a lot of you arguing don't even go to Hopkins, so why do you care? At this point your pointing out what you assume to be gaffe in hopkins way of getting students into professional schools. So other than talking largely out of your butts, your just making hopkins look like a big, evil stress-creating monster, which it isn't. Talk to people who have gone through the process with less than stellar grades, and you'll see this whole discussion is moot.</p>

<p>check these: <a href="http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3612%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3612&lt;/a>
<a href="http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=1313%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=1313&lt;/a>
<a href="http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=922%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=922&lt;/a>
<a href="http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=5555%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=5555&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The fact is, regardless of your GPA, if you do what's required plus some research and shadowing, you'll get in somewhere.</p>

<p>Read the bottom of the last one. She used the undergrad committee to SUPPORT HER APPLICATION, despite a poor GPA.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
I don't know a single student here that considers the school "cutthroat". [...] Talk to people

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While I originally didn't feel it relevant to mention this, I wanted you to know that I do have direct contact with several people who did their undergraduate work at Hopkins.</p>

<p>My school has four Hopkins alumni. One of them ('06) I don't know hardly at all. Two others ('06) consider the school to have been cutthroat. The remaining one ('04) is cutthroat. My former PI was a Hopkins alum (~'87) who told stories about sitting on her fire escape crying at night because the school was so cutthroat.</p>

35

<p>Cutthroat is subjective. Care to define?</p>

36

<p>Another question: Do they tailor their requirements for a committee letter to reflect affirmative action (ie if a white student with a 2.8 GPA and a 28 MCAT doesn't get a letter, does a black applicant with the same stats get a letter)?</p>

37

<p>"the individual student, rather than ones that benefit the school and the high acheiving students at your expense. Numerous other schools that are just as successful at getting their undergrads into med school do not have such screens in place, meaning that the only reason for continuing such a controversial policy must be that the school derives a significant benefit from it, in this case an inflation in its placement rate by effectively preventing weaker applicants from applying."
-the sacrifice of the individual student for the majority of the student, not only the high achieving ones. None of its peer schools, atleast the ones which provided data to us news, do not have the same nor higher grad+med attendence % as jhu, and most of its peer schools do not even have grad+med attendence % even close to jhu's. i think the major benefit derived from this is that the school's majority of alumni's benefit from this. But yes philly, i agree this method is fundamentally unjust, but i personally believe the end justifies the mean...personally if it doesn;t work out for me lol...jhu has great flexibilities in changing majors lol </p>

<p>Yes, what coolguyusa said is right, I know for certain that jhu's rec consideration thinging is not just numbers based; however, numbers are considered. As i said b4, the number that was given to me by a previous hopkins student was 3.4-3.5+, but then if what spec07 said is true, than hopkins has inflation and such numbers are obtained by over 50% of the undergrads. </p>

<p>bluedevil, according to a current hopkins student, yes the basic classes are curved in such a way that if everyone does well, not everyone will get an A...however, for the more advanced courses, classes are curved in such a way that it is possible that everyone in the class can get As and it is possible that no one in the class can get As. And yes, it is more competitive in that 49% of its graduates all immediately attend grad school...that's almost like saying do not go to this high school b/c of its high acceptance rate into 4yr colleges.<br>
Anyhow...bluedevilmike, sigh >< i will probably be one of those students crying at night b/c of the stiff competition and the injustices...so for any future 08's high school graduates...i will be here next year to give my harsh tirades against hopkins =(</p>

38

<p>I have several friends from high school who went to hopkins, and know few grad or MD students here who did their undergrad there, and almost to a person they have described the atmosphere as cutthroat. As far as defining the term, I think when it is called cutthroat in comparison to notoriously competitive (different from cutthroat) preprofessionally-oriented schools like Stanford, Penn, Duke, Cornell, WashU, etc. that there is real cause for concern. </p>

<p>As to why we should care, these forums exist to help students that are going through the process, and provide a place for discussions such as this. Someone who is applying to Hopkins should be aware that while the school has a steller rep for getting students in to med school, by attending one assumes an additional element of risk, for no student truly knows how they will fare in a college environment before they get to one.</p>

39

<p>The fact is, Hopkins is a competitive place with rigorous academics. There is no cutthroat mentality, although that absurd belief has been floating on these boards as long as I've read them, which pushes 4 years now. I don't know how many times it has to be said, the general body of students does not consider Hopkins cutthroat. The success of one student does not require the failure of another. Students are cordial, helpful and study together. There is no destruction of lives, books or reputations. There is not subversive activity between conspiring students. Hopkins gets a bad reputation because it is one of the few school that make you really work hard for your degree. And before I get arrogant, angry remarks about this, professional schools believe this. This sentiment has been relayed to me by admissions officers at top law schools, so I'm assuming that it holds true across most graduate schools. I don't know how many times it has to be said by Hopkins students: Hopkins is not cutthroat. BDM and phillySAS, perhaps you're coming into contact with the very few who keep this myth alive or perhaps those Hopkins alum are just saying that to make it seem like they hacked the infamously cutthroat Hopkins, but this is very far from the case. I know students in every class, and students going to Ph.D programs, top medical schools, top law schools and careers in IB and consulting and everyone seems to agree that Hopkins is competitive, but still far from cutthroat. There is no "cause for concern" as it is said. If you can succeed at Stanford, Duke, Penn, Cornell and WUSTL, you can succeed at Hopkins. The atmosphere may be a little more competitive than some of these, but nothing to get agitated over.</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
basic classes are curved in such a way

[/quote]

The idea behind being a tough place has more to do with the culture than the structure of the class.</p>

<p>No, I've never interrogated my friends in detail and don't plan to. My PI made rough allusions to things like sabotaging other students' projects and such, but I never followed up with questioning.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Hopkins alum are just saying that to make it seem like they hacked the infamously cutthroat Hopkins

[/quote]

Certainly possible.</p>

<p>I agree in that I don't think one should base a decision off of a forum. Any student who's choosing a college should, though, be aggressive about asking around.</p>