There has been considerable re-shuffling of college athletic leagues of late, including substantial geographic broadening of several of them.
Granting that this is mostly a flight of fancy, if the Ivy League were looking to grow, adding as many as 8 members, which schools would make sense? (From both the perspective of the school to be added, and the Ivy League/current constituents…)
It’s tricky, because of course the Ivy League, to a far greater degree than other college sports leagues, is broadly about academics even if it’s narrowly about athletics. And the Ivy League likely doesn’t bring big revenue via TV deals and the like, that are the likely drivers of much of the rest of the re-alignment/growth of certain leagues.
That said, let’s have a little fun thinking about this.
In theory, new members don’t have to be D1 right now - they could grow into it. They could be affiliated with another league, but if they’re an athletic powerhouse elsewhere (especially in mens’ football/basketball), downgrading (athletically) to the Ivy League would be questionable.
Duke - good enough athletically, but wouldn’t likely want the downgrade from ACC basketball. Same goes for other academically strong ACC schools (UVA, UNC). Wake Forest maybe, but probably isn’t good enough academically.
MIT - Obviously a fit in geography and academic strength, and probably the right size, too. But I think they’re at a lower level of the NCAA now. Would they want to give up spots from academically stronger non-athletes to be competitive enough to move up to the Ivy League? They don’t really gain so much, academically either, as MIT is already recognized as being on par with (above?) the top Ivies, academically.
Johns Hopkins - reasonably close geographically, I think about the right size, and academically I think at least on par with the lower Ivies. Not sure where they are academically now, but might be worth investing in athletics if an Ivy offer were available.
Northwestern, U Chicago - Lumping these together even though they’re rather different. But the geographic connection is obvious. Chicago rather famously demoted its athletics decades ago, but maybe time for a re-think? Northwestern mostly isn’t very competitive in the Big 10, but every now and then they get hot for a few years. Probably would not be worth it for Northwestern to give up the Big 10 $$$ for presumably far less in the Ivy League. But still, the two of these schools jumping to the Ivy League together has at least daydream appeal. Geography would be a little bit of a strain, but not too bad.
Vanderbilt, Wash U. - SLIGHTLY similar to the Northwestern and U Chicago pairing. Vandy is the doormat of the SEC, and, if not for the SEC $$$, would likely prefer the prestige of the Ivy League. Wash U. fits on some dimensions with the lower tier Ivies, but again, would have to upgrade its athletic programs. I’m more familiar with Wash U. than many others here - one issue is it lacks big-time athletic facilities (i.e. a decent sized football stadium), and also lacks the space to easily add them.
Carnegie-Mellon - Kind of a weird school in general - one part MIT, one part Julliard (I think?) Student body seems less likely to fit into a more athletic mold.
Williams, and other SLACs - I really don’t know these schools well. Probably too small to somehow twist their way into the Ivy League, especially for football, unless maybe there was some sort of cooperative (are any of these schools ~neighbors with each other)? Probably best left alone.
Notre Dame - OK, OBVIOUSLY wrong for football. But what if they switched from their status quo (which I think is independent for football, ACC for the rest), to Ivy affiliation for non-football sports? Still might be a little too athletically competitive for the Ivies.
Stanford - Huge reach geographically, but the academic fit works. But Stanford probably wants to at least stay within sight-distance of elite football.
Rice - Too far geographically (and maybe culturally?) If there were a few other southern/southeastern/south-Midwestern schools to join in with - maybe Vandy, Wash U., and something like Tulane?
Alright, with that, I take a break, and throw it open to the crowd…
I know the topic is a hypothetical, but I don’t think the current members would want to expand. They Ivy League may not have the revenue of some athletic conferences, but in terms of marketing it is unmatched.
But let’s suppose for a minute that there actually was consensus to expand. I suspect they would want new colleges to be above the current median in terms of academic reputation (so around Columbia or Penn level). I think that would make WUSTL and Vanderbilt unlikely.
The three best fits would be UChicago, Northwestern, and JHU. MIT is certainly an academic powerhouse but doesn’t fit the liberal arts ethos that all the current members have.
Can’t imagine it but I couldn’t imagine Stanford and Cal to the ACC.
Couldn’t be a Duke/Vandy etc bcuz of the D1 money.
Likely would be in a close proximity so not WUSTL or Chicago.
More like a Bowdoin, Tufts type but I can’t imagine it happening. JHU due to lacrosse. Ivy is an athletic conference but about far more than athletics.
Considering academic reputation, geography and size, I can only see JHU as being a fit. It is a lacrosse powerhouse but so are several of the Ivies.
If we put aside geography, the next 2 would be Chicago and Rice.
Outside of of these 3 schools, plus Stanford, MIT and Caltech and maybe Duke, I don’t see the Ivies seeing other universities being academic peers up and down the entire student body and across the majority of academic departments.
The Ivy League is at its core a sports conference. Stanford is arguably the best performing overall college in the United States in Div I sports, if you look at the average rankings/performance across all sports, rather than just football and men’s basketball. Caltech is a small Div III college that once went on a 20+ year conference losing streak, with some players who had no prior experience in the sport. Having Stanford and Caltech play in the same conference and fly thousands of miles to the northeast for their games is likely to have some issues.
For those who are perhaps more closely tied to Ivy League sports (i.e. either alums, residents of the Northeast, or simply bigger college sports fans than I), how “big” are Ivy League sports now?
Do at least the football games all air on a decent TV network, to decent ratings and with decent rights fees? Do they draw significant attendance, and/or have at least a degree of the money and interest that bigger programs draw? (i.e. tailgating on Saturdays, general schmoozing, luxury boxes, source of alum donations)? Do the athletic departments more or less carry their own weight, financially, etc.? Do non-alums who live in the relevant areas care much about the sports?
As someone more interested in history than sports, and as most NCAA conferences seem to have somewhere around 11–14 schools in them, and as Dartmouth was the last Ivy founded (and 14th currently-active university founded in America), I’d suggest “all universities founded in or before 1769”. That gives us … Harvard
William and Mary
St. Johns Yale
Washington College (MD) UPenn
Moravian University
University of Delaware Princeton
Washington and Lee Columbia Brown University
Rutgers Dartmouth
I have no idea what sports teams some of them field, but, again, not really a big sports person, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Depends on the sport. For football and basketball, the teams have not been true D1 level competitive for decades. There are occasional Cinderella teams in basketball, and a sprinkling of NFL/NBA level players. AFAIK, the only TV viewers on some secondary channel (not quite the Ocho, but close) are the alums. Student attendance is also not great these days. I went to just about every home football game, my S maybe went to 2 each year, including the Harvard game.
Some sports teams are nationally competitive. They tend to be equivalency sports like lacrosse, hockey, fencing, crew since financial aid often is better than a partial athletic scholarship.
The sports teams are however a big source of alumni donations, especially around rival games. You see big tents and tailgates at most football games and alums of sports teams often give to their sport programs.
Would any schools be willing to abide by the Ivy rules? No scholarships, the bands for admissions, limited ‘slots’ for athletes? A school like ND gives a lot of athletic scholarships, and balances them for men and women in compliance with Title IX. Northwestern may not win many championships but did win the women’s lax national championship this year (and has a strong history of winning) and most of those players are on scholarship.
I don’t know about Ivy sports on TV but many teams now have their games streamed either for free or for a season or per game fee. Most of the watchers are parents or alums of the school, but at least it is possible to follow the teams. Also ESPN-U and Fox college sports have a lot of games on from the ‘minor’ sports. Lax, softball, baseball, volleyball, gymnastics are on all the time. B1G Network and ACC network are on my cable and streaming services so I can watch all kinds of things 24-7. If a big football game (Ohio State v Mich) is on a national channel, they’ll have other games on or another sport.
I think they would have to compromise too much on academics for schools that would have to compromise too much on athletics, particularly given it being unlikely they would agree to go national or even go outside the Northeast given the travel burden that imposes on student-athletes.
But where I think the compromises might be closest to making sense . . .
These first two are D1 + private R1 +T50 USNews universities in the Northeast that might even plausibly consider it:
Boston U
Northeastern
Slim pickings.
So these are a few more private R1 + T50 universities in the Northeast, not currently D1, but I could maybe see upgrading to Ivy-level D1:
Brandeis
Hopkins
NYU
Tufts
Rochester
Finally, I’ll toss in RPI, which plays hockey in the ECAC and is almost T50 (tied for 51), to make it an even 8.
And . . . that kinds makes sense to me. Like, inevitably this is going to dilute the current academic cachet of the Ivy League, but perhaps these colleges would get a boost over time to close that gap. Boston gets more schools, Cornell gets some closer company, we’ve stretched the southern border to Baltimore, but all that seems reasonable to me.
Edit: Oh, but Brandeis seems borderline. I think I might swap William & Mary for them if necessary.
I agree, but its “core” is MUCH greater than sports. We’ve lived in several countries, and basically, no one knows any other sports conference except for the Ivy League.
And it is definitely not because of Ivy League sports. Rightfully, wrongfully, misguidedly etc, there is a clear perception that these are some of the “best” colleges in the world and certainly in the US. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but there is a cachet with the words “Ivy League” that gives it a worldwide (including US) prestige.
In other words, I see no way that the Ivy League would ever expand because it might dilute the brand that affects so many things besides sports. I think even great schools like MIT and Stanford wouldn’t make the cut. There is way too much history and even current benefits to keep the Ivy League at the current eight member institutions.
Then again, who would have ever thought that the Pac-XX would ever implode like it did?
