<p>Guys, I'm all for taking away the race box, but considering one's background. The point of AA is to help the disadvantaged (for some reason, this is made equivalent with minority) student rise above their situation in life to achieve greatness and end the unjust cycle of poverty or something like that. Checking a race box doesn't do this guys, sorry. Not to hate on KB, but I'm just as black as he is. KB grew up in Naperville, an Illinois suburb a bit richer than my own, and is often accused of not acting according ot his own race, while I'm accused of the same thing, except I'm white. Technically, I'd bring more black culture to the campus than KB, but since my race box said "white", KB gets the fat scholarship and I'm left paying 40 g's a year when his family could probably afford that just as well as my family could. The race box is just way too narrow in scope and can't possibly determine the diveristy a student can bring the campus. I think an income box or a "quality of HS" box probably do a better job of helping the disadvantaged student, and a "how can I add to the diversity of this campus" essay we see at many Ivies would help the diversity cause more than the box.</p>
<p>You've got good points.</p>
<p>You're aware that Michigan asks that exact same essay question, right?</p>
<p>And asks about income? And number of dependents living on that income?</p>
<p>And parental status?</p>
<p>And parent's level of education?</p>
<p>yeah but hoedown the points you listed aren't the statistics kids post on this board when they want their chances evaluated.</p>
<p>why? because in the long run they don't play that big of a role.</p>
<p>hoedown, if those factors were the true basis for scholarship, explain kb's scholarship when I got nothing when, statistically speaking, I was clearly the more qualified applicant?</p>
<p>I don't know if those are the basis for scholarships, but they are a factor in admissions. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were talking about. SES is a factor for need, of course, which will impact your grant total.</p>
<p>
[quote]
yeah but hoedown the points you listed aren't the statistics kids post on this board when they want their chances evaluated.</p>
<p>why? because in the long run they don't play that big of a role.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Believe what you want.</p>
<p>Ohmigod.........</p>
<p>Let me just sit here for a minute in an effort to avoid expressing any half-formed thoughts.</p>
<p>Actually....I'm just gonna not say anything in response right this second...there's too much problematic material to cover.</p>
<p>Alright...here we go.</p>
<p>Let's start with the plain old factually incorrect material.</p>
<p>
[quote]
KB grew up in Naperville, an Illinois suburb a bit richer than my own
[/quote]
.</p>
<p>That's incorrect, I grew up in Ft. Wayne Indiana in a Black middle class neighborhood. I moved to Naperville when I was 13. I grew up in two worlds, one all Black, the other all white.</p>
<p>
[quote]
[KB] is often accused of not acting according to (sic) his own race
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Indeed...but usually people aren't aware when they're accusing me. Examples:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm just as black as he is
[/quote]
and
[quote]
I'd bring more black culture to the campus than KB
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'd be happy to disclose the details about my scholarship. I am a TASS alumni from the 2003 program at UM. UM offered the LSA scholarship to alums of that program. TASS, while focusing on african-american studies, is open to all students regardless of race. So...I'm sorry if you missed the boat on that chibears. Originally, I did not get the TASS scholarship; I had a regular old LSA scholarship in the same amount (15K a year). However, one of the winners of the TASS scholarship decided to go somewhere else, and so they gave the TASS scholarship to me, and they then gave my LSA scholarship to somebody else. </p>
<p>Now on top of that, I have numerous outside scholarships, including a national merit scholarship, a discover card tribute award, and other things. I have so many because my resume is quite extensive, highlighting my skills and talents in things outside the classroom. I don't hesitate saying for a minute that in the things outside grades and scores, I cleaned chibears clock. So...in total, that's why UM is free for me. </p>
<p>
[quote]
since my race box said "white", KB gets the fat scholarship and I'm left paying 40 g's a year when his family could probably afford that just as well as my family could
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The reason chibears pays 40 K a year is that he decided to go to UM, even knowing the price, and the relative stingyness of the school when it comes to need based aid. That's not my fault I'm afraid. Frankly, if UM thought you deserved a scholarship, they would have given it to you. I know PLENTY of white LSA scholars. So your beef is with the LSA scholarship office, not me.</p>
<p>kb, you could start with what AA is about. I'm not sure Michigan would agree with the premise that chibears stated. He said it's about "helping the disadvantaged." </p>
<p>In fact, the compelling interest that Michigan is after is "increasing diversity." Not just advancing the downtrodden. That has been the object in other programs, and remains a part of what Michigan's program does, but it is not its sole point. It wants classrooms with people from all different backgrounds and of all different races and ethnicities.</p>
<p>One may think that AA should be about advancing those who have been disadvantaged, and then argue (as chibears has) that this isn't equivalent with "minority." That latter point is a good one. But one can't fault Michigan for that--it's not claiming that its AA programs aim to champion the disadvantaged. This is a different (albeit perhaps quite worthy) argument.</p>
<p>Why is it that white people on this campus complain about the number of unqualified Black and Hispanic students, but then get mad when the University tries to attract some well qualified ones? </p>
<p>I can tell you right now that if this school hadn't offered me money, I'd be at Dartmouth or Howard right now. And this school doesn't give money to a WHOLE BUNCH of kids just like me. We need more merit aid targeted to minorities, not less.</p>
<p>College admissions is all about market economics. There are 10 billion kids out there just like chibears, but the demand isn't so high. So UM can get away paying a lower price (giving less scholarship for example) because if chibears chooses not to go, UM has 5 more waiting in the wings. With well qualified minorities, Black males especially, the supply is miniscule and the demand is enormous. The reason UM is getting beat on well qualified minorities is simple supply and demand. This is why universities have to work hard (pay a high price) for them. By and large, UM isn't willing to pay the price (in terms of scholarship) to attract well-qualified minorities to the school, so we go to HBCU's where we have a full ride, or Ivies, which we generally consider more prestigious.</p>
<p>UM's goal wasn't healing the scars of racism when they gave me money and admitted me, they were in the market for a commodity that is highly desired and not widely found.</p>
<p>Let's make the distinction, I'm not really wild about race preferences in admissions, because I think we need to be demanding higher performance from underrepresented minorities. But what I and absolutley convinced of is that the University needs to use race to attract WELL QUALIFIED minorities to campus. I know for a fact that UM is losing huge numbers of these students to Ivies and HBCU's. If UM wants to increase diversity, that's the way to do it...not artificially skewing the admissions process.</p>
<p>And lest my comments be misconstrued, it's not that Michigan doesn't care about students from disadvantaged backgrounds. It does. Remember, back when Michigan gave points, poor students got just as many points as underrepresented minorities did. </p>
<p>It frustrates me that so many people assume that poverty and discrimination is what AA at Michigan is all about. They're conflating what they've heard about other AA programs and ignoring the massive amounts of information U-M has produced explaining why it believes increasing racial diversity is a compelling, educationally-sound goal.</p>
<p>Similarly, it believes in gender diversity. Men applying to Nursing get a boost. Does this mean Michigan thinks men are downtrodden? poor? come from bad schools? are disadvantaged? Of course not. U-M boosts men because they think it's important to ensure that more of them are in those nursing classrooms.</p>
<p>KB, you're right to point out that clarifying points is not the same as saying one believes AA is a great idea. I don't always agree with its premises or its practices (although I'm generally supportive). But if I can clarify what someone else has wrong about it, I think it's important to do so.</p>
<p>Maybe I didn't phrase things as well as I could have. There is probably no one with the authority to determine who brings more black culture to U of M, a black student raised in a white suburb who takes little interest in his/her racial background (as I have found many here in the honors college, and kb does not fit this profile, I just used him because he's known on these boards), or a white student raised in that same white suburb who is fascinated with black culture and immerses him/herself in it. KB's been to NAACP meetings and been honored by tons of black organizations because he excells academically. I haven't, and that's because my skin isn't dark enough. I have, however, attended black churches, rapped in front of all-black crowds (even here at the university), and every day I strive to increase understanding of the black culture to some of the ignorant kids around here. So I'd say each of us bring a different element of black culture to the school, and I don't think there's anyone out there to say which one of us is more important in that aspect than the other. Maybe I should switch to other exmaples that more clearly don't represent their race, because I think kb does in many ways, but he is perceived not to, just as I'm perceived not to represent my own. I have two room mates, one who is half black, half white, the other who is ONE EIGHTH Hispanic and the rest is white. They are both here on full rides on account of race and once a semester have to talk to some minority advisor or something. I think if we were to ask them who adds the most cultural diversity to the campus out of the three of us, the answer would be unanimous in my favor. Just like kb, I'm all for increasing aid to qualified minority students who add diversity to the campus. My overriding point is that racial diversity is not quantified by how many students of each each race we have on campus, it's about how much each race is represented here, because frankly, many "minority" students have nothing to offer in terms of the diversity that their race can provide because they've been so far removed from their own heritage their whole life.</p>
<p>KB, is your name Kevin?</p>
<p>I think I know you -- I've played some chess with carl too...and they say this campus is too big! ;)</p>
<p>Have you seen our former Cohen classmates in action recently? They're still acting a just a <em>bit</em> outrageous!</p>
<p>Anyway, you know that I'm not implicating all minorities on campus, right? </p>
<p>If you're who I think you are, I've had a couple sections with you, and I would love nothing more than for everyone on campus (regardless of race) to be as smart as you seem to be.</p>
<p>My total argument would be for the school to have classes of 4000 instead of 6500. The bottom 2000 just aren't as qualified/prepared as they should be -- and, unfortunately, I often feel as if minorities are disproportionately represented in this group.</p>
<p>...but I've had some bad personal experiences (EG a chemistry lab group with two students from Detroit that didn't know how to do algebra or even work with fractions) that might have unfairly tainted my perception of the issue.</p>
<p>I also turned down the ivy league to come to UM, but I did it as a white male that could easily paid for it without going into any debt. <a href="http://members.aol.com/bassandface/ba.jpg%5B/url%5D">http://members.aol.com/bassandface/ba.jpg</a>
If I wanted an education where most of my classmates would be unequivocally brilliant, I would have gone there. </p>
<p>I didn't and don't think that would have been a better education, but I am a little concerned about just how many people Michigan seems to be admitting these days (presumably solely for monetary reasons).</p>
<p>As to affirmative action:
Menken once wrote: for every complex problem, there is a simple solution, and it is wrong. </p>
<p>I think affirmative action is the simple "solution" to a complex problem. Wouldn't you agree that the real inequity lies in the achievement gap (which is itself a complex problem involving poor schooling, poverty, and culture)?</p>
<p>
[quote]
but i disagree that the change would be substantial. Furthermore, there would be no effect of "cream rising to the top" because the cream has been admitted all along, no matter what the AA scheme (or no AA at all).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree. That's why I advocate dropping the class size to a more reasonable 4-4.5k as well as greatly reducing or eliminating affirmative action (which I oppose on moral and practical grounds).</p>
<p>LMAO...."I was sitting there thinking "things could get out of hand" you better believe mr. newscaster!!! and this little kid screaming "I want to go to college...I want to be a nurse" I want to sit him down and tell him that if he wants to do those things, he needs to stop hangin out with BAMN and go read a book....MCRI is gonna be OUTRAGEOUS next year.</p>
<p>Yeah...BAMN is a totally inappropriate organization, and they make it difficult for reasonable people to sit down and discuss the issue. Its lamentable really.</p>
<p>Is my name Kevin...not so much no...but you're so close i'll give it to you. Kenny B. hence the kb. the 54010 part was my high school ID number in case anybody was interested in the trivia.</p>
<p>ouch...a trip in Sqaud....sounds cozy chibears. hehe.</p>
<p>More substantively, you still don't understand that "being black" isn't a monolithic condition that involves a set number of character traits. There is diversity within the Black community, just as there is diversity within the "white" community, if you will. Because of this diversity, any claims as to the "blackness" of a person are faulty. </p>
<p>I can't view the claim that you add to diversity to this campus credibly in light of your terrible habit of over generalizing chibears. I have friends whom I would describe as undiverse as it gets, but at least they have a view on race that isn't so...1960's.</p>
<p>
[quote]
many "minority" students have nothing to offer in terms of the diversity that their race can provide because they've been so far removed from their own heritage their whole life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's just offensive man. Who in the hell are you say that anybody has been removed from their heritage. Now if you wanna say that about your roomates, that's fine (I dunno how they'd react to that....I know I wouldn't take it well), but you are in no way qualified to talk about "minorities" en masse. You're the reason why these crazy BAMN extremists think we need more race preferences in admissions.</p>
<p>LOL...who takes pictures of their acceptance letters. lol....I love it. I hung my yale rejection letter up...so I guess its sort of the same idea.</p>
<p>Returning to the subject of yeild, minority enrollment, and total enrollment. UM got caught with its pants down because yields were above expectations two years in a row. What SHOULD happen is that admissions standards will go up and the admit rate will go down. Problem is that the way things are now, the tightening of standards will come not at the expense of low performing minorities, but mediocre white applicants.</p>
<p>The best way to make affirmative action at this university more effective is to make UM more attractive to HIGH PERFORMING MINORITIES....ones like me O:-). If more high performing minorities are admitted AND matriculate, than the overall admit rate for minorities will fall, coming more in line with the overall admit rate. Its not about eliminating affirmative action, but moving its focus from low-performing minorities (e.g "any black face will do") to high-performing ones (e.g ohh...black guy with a 33 ACT 3.8 etc....GET HIM!). </p>
<p>Look, I'm in the middle on race preferences...if anything a bit more on lawschool's side. But partisans on the anti-AA side need to always run a mental check to make sure that they are anti-AA, and not anti-Black. More importantly, they need to word thier arguments in a way that cannot be construed as being anti-minority. Even the great Carl Cohen said some things that while accurate, I would consider gaffes.</p>
<p>mmmm...the achievement gap. Indeed, it is the main problem that race preferences does a pretty terrible job of addressing. Look, race preferences in admissions are morally problematic, and fairly illegal. But they are neccessary in some degree. My problem with wiping them out completely is that the absence of RP doesn't help the achievement gap any more than having them does. But rewarding high achievement in minorities through scholarship and other incentives does. From personal experience, when I tell Black kids who are in 8th and 9th grade that I go to UM for free, it makes them wanna sit down and study. THAT'S what we need more of.</p>
<p>KB</p>
<p>
[quote]
More substantively, you still don't understand that "being black" isn't a monolithic condition that involves a set number of character traits. There is diversity within the Black community, just as there is diversity within the "white" community, if you will.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Amen. </p>
<p>For my money, a bad way to perpetuate this stereotype of what it means to be "authentically" black is to set up a program that favors only black kids who grew up in Cabrini Green and love rap. The value in having a wide range of people (of ALL colors) on campus is that it challenges such ideas and reminds us that not all people are the same despite what stereotypes lead us to conclude about them.</p>
<p>So IMHO, a native american kid who grew up off the rez and the middle-class black kid bring diversity, too. If only the kind that make people say "hey, wow, not all blacks kids are the same." Just like the poor kid from Greenwich, CT brings diversity.</p>
<p>
[quote]
LOL...who takes pictures of their acceptance letters. lol....I love it. I hung my yale rejection letter up...so I guess its sort of the same idea.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I did, LMAO. I was really up on the whole collegeconfidential "gotta get in, gotta get in, rah, rah" type stuff, and I was the first one on the board to get in so they asked what it looked like. --but that's two years old. I couldn't care less about that stuff now.</p>
<p>of course if u are truly exceptional, u will get some sort of scholarship to Michigan. But, when i was applying to colleges, I saw a list of scholarships available, and about 85% of them are geared toward URMs, I would imagine that URMs have a higher chance of getting the scholarship than a white/asian applicant.</p>