If you can't do the time, don't do the crime--a cautionary tale about debt

<p>Berkeleyorbust felt this thread was really about public policy, not personal responsibility and that educational access is better in other developed countries.</p>

<p>Higher ed is more financially accessible in other parts of the world but it is not truly more accessible because many of the students who attend college in the US would have been weeded out of the college bound track by middle school in other parts of the world.</p>

<p>A lack of personal responsibility in the realm of student loans will lead to changes in public policy that will likely make access to college in the US more restricted - to those who can pay. A vision of free education paints a rosy picture but every system has its costs - in other parts of the world where education is free taxes are high and kids are weeded out of the college pool early, in our system everyone has the illusion that a college education is possible but someone has to pay for it either up front or through loans or for the lucky few, through scholarships.</p>

<p>Thanks. I’ll look. But in the meantime . . Would you say that because student loans are ok, it is fine to use them on private schools? As opposed to good public in state options that are much cheaper.
Ae you saying that loans used to be a good deal, like when this BU student made them, but they arent anymore?</p>

<p>The general rule is to take no more than about $30K in loans, and pay them back.</p>

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<p>Apparently there is a line of thought that paying back student loans is only for suckers.</p>

<p>redpt
during JA’s & our time, pre2006-after 1998, student loans were different. The loans then were good deals and good deals still today. But today’s student loans are neither good or bad, they are just different and more in line to loans made prior to 1998. </p>

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[Financial</a> Aid Your Package - financial-aid - College Confidential](<a href=“http://www.collegeconfidential.com/financial_aid/understand_aid.htm]Financial”>http://www.collegeconfidential.com/financial_aid/understand_aid.htm)</p>

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<p>It’s even worse for the economy when lenders don’t get their loans repaid, because then they stop lending and businesses and future college students can’t get the loans they need. Either that or someone else gets stuck with the bill - like tax payers in the case of federally guaranteed loans.</p>

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<p>“Putting more people into debt” - you mean giving out more student loans or boosting the economy by lending money to start and grow businesses? I would think those are good things. And banks are not “putting” anyone into debt. They are putting themselves into debt. I’ve never heard of a bank loan officer that pulled out gun and forced some student to take out a loan.</p>

<p>If students think it’s a proper thing to not pay back their student loans or that they somehow shouldn’t be obligated to pay them, then despite their fancy, high-priced educations they don’t understand the meaning of the word “loan.”</p>

<p>I’ve heard that Europe is moving towards what we have in the US - private schools for those that can pay, whether through assets or loans. The system that they have in Europe is for the wealthy and politically connected to get their kids on the academic tracks and then get their higher ed paid for with government funds.</p>

<p>I, too, think many here are missing key points.</p>

<p>Long ago…when I was young and dinosaurs roamed the earth…student loans could be discharged in bankruptcy. Some baby boomers promptly defaulted right after getting admitted to the bar or getting their medical licenses. The problem wasn’t limited to lawyers and doctors, but they were the worst offenders. So, the law was amended and you couldn’t discharge loans in bankruptcy. However, this provision only applied to FEDERAL student loans. The amount of such loans students can get is limited to reasonable levels. These levels were not sufficient to pay full COA. So, some students also took out private loans. Private lenders were cautious in giving out such loans. You were unlikely to be able to borrow $150,000 to become a librarian or social worker. </p>

<p>Then, the “no discharge in bankruptcy for student loans” rule was extended to private loans. In theory, this was to benefit students by making higher education more accessible to everyone.</p>

<p>In reality, it benefited both banks and colleges and universities, especially private colleges and universities, more than it benefited students. Banks no longer cared if the loans “made sense,” since there is no way folks can discharge them in bankruptcy. They co-operated with schools that steered the poor lambs (a/k/a students) to them by giving the schools kick backs. Moreover, colleges were able to hike up tuition rates much, much faster than they were in the days when fewer students could get private loans from banks. Loans made more cash available to pay tuition and helped drive the cost up. </p>

<p>Back when I finished law school, the COA at the most expensive law schools in the nation was less than $5,000 per year. The starting salary at BIGLAW was $20,000 per year, i.e, pre-tax more than the cost of 3 years at law school. Almost nobody borrowed that amount, because almost everyone worked the summer after the second year in law school and earned pre-tax about $4,500. Most people had some sort of job the summer after first year. Most had some other summer or full time earnings as well. So, I don’t think anyone was more than about $10,000 in debt going into a job that paid $20,000. </p>

<p>Now, the cost of attending a private law school or OOS public is more like $210,000. Even BIGLAW doesn’t pay that much to start. BIGLAW jobs are much harder to come by. If you do get a summer job after second year, it’s for 8 weeks instead of the 10-12 that was the norm in the 70s. And more and more universities are opening law schools because they are cash cows for universities. While fewer and fewer law school graduates can get jobs, more and more law schools are being opened. </p>

<p>It’s not just lawyers either. The social workers and librarians are going into debt too. The cost of getting a master’s in either is more than the annual starting salary of either at many schools. If students could default on these loans, private lenders wouldn’t make them. </p>

<p>And, in the old days, you could get part time jobs. Now, you’re lucky if you get an unpaid “internship.” And, you’re even luckier if your school doesn’t force you to pay tuition for that “internship.” </p>

<p>Again, that’s the result of the law. Employers were using “interns,” who did scut work and got paid nothing. So, Congress cracked down. Now, for the employers to be able to avoid paying minimum wage, the interns have to be getting “course credit.” That’s because Congress thought universities would make sure that the internships were real learning experiences. But, one heck of a lot of schools charge tuition for that “experience.” Internships are a HUGE cash cow for schools. Some colleges, including some highly ranked ones, actually REQUIRE internships to get a degree. In theory, that sounds smart. In reality, this means that kids are borrowing money they pay to the school to work for employers for free. </p>

<p>The system is broken. It needs to be fixed. You can blame the kids for bad decisions, just as you can blame home purchasers in the subprime mortgage mess. But the REAL culprits, in both cases are the banks and the legislators who allowed these situations to occur. PLEASE don’t think that the lenders are the victims here–the idea is ludicrous.</p>

<p>“many of the students who attend college in the US would have been weeded out of the college bound track by middle school in other parts of the world.”</p>

<p>That is true. Also, in the rest of the world, subsidized college education disproportionately goes to the sort of folks who, in America, pay full freight at expensive schools. In other words, it’s a regressive structure where the whole society contributes to subsidize Oxbridge et al. for a lot of rich people who could well afford to pay the true cost.</p>

<p>The student loan overhang resembles the mortgage loan overhang in many ways–some banks have a lot of these zombie loans on their books but don’t want to take a hit to their balance sheets by declaring the loans worthless (which they are) and foreclosing on the house. So a number of people are paying a nominal amount their loans ($69 dollars a month for a $100K loan!) or not paying on their loans at all. </p>

<p>Little by little, the banks will close out these loans or take the loss. </p>

<p>I know someone who has over $150K in student loans and a job that doesn’t allow for much else but living month to month. She doesn’t plan on buying a house. She doesn’t pay on her student loans. The loans will go away when she dies–I think that is the plan.</p>

<p>The cost of attendance versus pay level at graduation ratio has changed unfavorably for the student not just for law school, but for undergraduate.</p>

<p>Since 1983, cost of attendance at most schools has more than doubled in real terms after adjusting for inflation.</p>

<p>But pay levels for recent graduates are similar to or worse than pay levels for recent graduates in 1983. Compare the pay levels here:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1267923-average-monthly-salary-graduates-1983-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1267923-average-monthly-salary-graduates-1983-a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>with those on page 8 of this:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/Unemployment.Final.pdf[/url]”>http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/Unemployment.Final.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>But if the loans will never be repaid, how is the bank to make money? I think that you have to factor in that banks get upfront fees and have been able to sell these loans immediately to other parties who bundled them and made them into securities.</p>

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<p>So what’s the difference between a loan that doesn’t go away but the borrower never pays back and a loan that gets discharged through bankruptcy? Either way the bank doesn’t get its money back.</p>

<p>jonri - the lenders are not what I would call victims, whatever loss they suffer will only be short term (and the ripples of which will hit main street a lot harder than wall street - look at the housing bubble for reference). What will happen, as you so clearly explained in your post, is that once a situation becomes unsustainable the rules of the game will change. This, in my opinion, is why sound choices need to be encouraged - otherwise the system will need to make adjustments. If more and more students run up debts they can’t/won’t repay access to education will be narrowed, to the detriment of the middle class I’m afraid.</p>

<p>Really says something about the quality of a BU business degree if they guy can really say with a straight face that he didn’t understand what the loan agreement meant. </p>

<p>I’d certainly never hire him.</p>

<p>This is why I am coming to the conclusion that I should try to get my kids to go to the state honors program, rather than private schools. On the other hand, it seems that most of the people on these boards, as well as in my one child’s private school, would never in a million years bow down and send their kids to state public. (I understand in some cases private can be cheaper). "Going to a “good school” has become so overly fraught with meaning that people risk their futures for it.</p>

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<p>I don’t know if this is still possible, but a while back there was a WSJ article about a guy whose social security checks were being docked for student loan debt. </p>

<p>I always thought the preferred path to 1%ism was working for a few years and then going back to graduate school, preferably a top MBA program. How can you even dream about graduate school with $150,000 of undergraduate student debt? (Someone will tell me they know people doing it)</p>

<p>I think the preferred path to 1%ism is more creative than business school.</p>

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<p>It is my understanding that for federal loans, your wages can be garnished, and your tax refunds and social security payments withheld until the loan is paid.</p>

<p>Private loans are unsecured, so I’m not sure of the procedure. But defaulting on them will certainly wreck your credit.</p>

<h1>148. :clap:</h1>

<p>Jonri, is knowledgeable. He’s old CC as am I. </p>

<p>May be cheaper to have ed.gov pay me & DS to accelerate our loans.</p>