<p>One thing the colleges can do is to buy the CB profile of high schools. I don't know if large public Us do this, but many privates do when they get an applilcation from an unknown high school. The information includes the size of the senior class, the number of students who took AP tests in each subject, and the breakdown of scores received. This isn't perfect, and I realize that. Still, if a private school is exceptionally rigourous, then there should be lots of kids taking AP tests in difficult subjects and doing well in them. An A from a high school at which 85% of the scores earned on AP exams are 4s or 5s will be perceived differently than one at which only 40% are. </p>
<p>The profiles also include other information which CB has--not just AP data.</p>
<p>I am not unsympathetic. GPA's from different HS or even two different students at the same HS taking a differenct set of courses are not comparable. I am always surprised on this site when I see postings of a student with a perfect 4.0 UW GPA and SAT's in the 600's. But this is not a secret that only you and I are in on. Jonri's comments are a good example of just a couple of the many things HS and colleges do to try to put the grades in perespective. You could add another exam of the type you are suggesting but it too would be measuring a somewhat different skill. I was ovecritical last night but while the current system is far from perfect, the down side of additional tests and papers to be evaluated by adcoms doesn't strike me as an improvement. What does seem to be happening is that AP's are becoming something of a nationwide standardized HS curiculum. I think this is good (when combined with the tests) and goes some distance to addressing your concerns.</p>
<p>there aren't as many options out there for "normal" kids as there are for kids that are incredibly smart or incredibly poor. PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong.</p>
<br>
<blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Kirsten, Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I believe it is, in fact, much easier for a "normal" kid to find a college match than it is for a star student who will only consider the same handful of schools that every other star student is also aiming at.</p>
<p>There are over 2,600 four year colleges and universities in the U.S. Only 135 or so reject more students than they accept. The rest are all more than happy to take applications from more "normal" kids, and those "normal" kids can get a terrific education in literally hundreds of places (in fact, so can those "star" students).</p>
<p>Overall, I find that students and parents who have realistic expectations, who understand that this is about finding a college match not winning a prize, and who believe that selectivity isn't the only way to measure educational quality, do quite well in admissions. It's the students and parents who believe that they can somehow ram themselves through the doors of highly selective schools where they have to compete with thousands of "star" students who end up feeling gypped.</p>
<p>You raise the issue of interviews. I think the reason that they are not used more often and given more weight is two fold. First, in those cases where the ad com members themselves conduct the interviews this is a very time consuming process and since schools recruit nationwide and even internationally not all students can get to campus for an interview or arrange for one with traveling ad com member. Second, if they have alumni conduct the intereviews its hard to put a huge amount of weight on the outcome since the intereviewers evaluation criteria are even harder to put in context than grades are. The interviews can be helpful to the applicants it is just hard to weight them heavily in admissions.</p>
<p>You also raise the issue of giving essays more weight and grades less. I think I may take some flack for this, but personally, I think they give the essays on the applications too much weight as it is. The problem is simple. It is too easy for a student to get someone to ghost write the essay or plagerize and essay from the hundreds available in books on the question or other sources. As a consequence the essay has to be evaluated in the context of the rest of the application. If it look so good that it doesn't look like it was written by the student in question, I think the ad coms have to (or should) assume that it wasn't or at least that it might not have been. Hence, it ought to be impossible for a student with a B average from an average school and 600's on all his SAT's to get into a highly selective school even with the best essays the adcom has ever seen.</p>
<p>Someone PM'd me to note that some schools that emphsize writing must use the essays to determine a student's readiness (agreed) and that some require proctored essays be submitted. I have never seen this but it sort of sounds like Epiphany's idea. Is anyone else aware of this practice (apart from the SAT writing sample)?</p>
<p>My son had to submit a previously graded writing sample from his earlier lessons to be admitted to his high school; I'm not aware of any college that asks for a writing sample from all applicants, other than the SAT I/ACT essay.</p>
<p>And more colleges, also than those listed in 148 & 149.</p>
<p>curious, we'll just have to disagree. That's because some schools do not require more in an AP class than prepping for the exam. And some teachers raise the graded classwork retroactively (after a 5 gained on the exam). In my D's school (& many other privates), two separate things are going on in every AP class: the course requirement at the <em>school</em>, and the exam requirements. You can get a B in the class and a 5 on the exam, or an A in the course & a 4 on the exam, etc. </p>
<p>Just looking to AP's taken is not standardizing course product.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not aware of any college that asks for a writing sample from all applicants, other than the SAT I/ACT essay.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hamilton College: Expository Prose (required)
With your application, you must include one example of expository prose that you have written for a school assignment. Describe the assignment on a separate sheet and attach a photocopy of the original, complete with teacher's comments and grade. You should submit an analytical essay, a book review or a research paper. (Short stories, poetry, plays or lab reports are not expository prose.) No limits are placed upon the length, but we suggest that your submission be of at least two typewritten pages.</p>
<p>I thought this was a great idea and would like to see it used by other colleges.</p>
<p>Colleges, like people, want to be as good as they can be; selective colleges do so by trying to attract the best students they can, because the quality of the students helps to determine the quality of the schools. A lottery of "basically qualified applicants" (is this easy to define?) would run counter to this goal, as fair as it might sound.</p>
<p>Yes, I'd much rather have the status quo of "build a class," in which each student at a highly selective college adds value to the college experience for the other students, than have a lottery.</p>
<p>I heard from a relative that the admissions process at the most competitive Swedish medical schools (to which students apply in their last year of high school) does operate that way. Apparently, the only requirement for eligibility is a perfect GPA. I have to say I prefer the US system. :eek:</p>
<p>I would definitely ask the admissions staff to check the applicant's record more because most of the rich Chinese kids in my high school in Shanghai( the entire high school does the IBDP) ask some admissions agency to fake their ecs, recs, and write their essays for like $5000 +.</p>
<p>Interesting, HappyJane, perhaps it would be a good idea to require that students make their applications avaliable to their GC's for spot checking inorder to eliminate anything as blatent as this.</p>