<p>Ok, suppose you took a SRS of 100 students who aere admitted to Caltech. Suppose this is summer, where there is no school work. You impose a treatment on all of them by giving them two choices to do:
1) Do math problems in, say, The Art of Problem Solvong: Vol2.
2) Play Halo 3 </p>
<p>From what I hear about Caltech students, it seems that they are obsessed with math and science or something. Would the majority pick #1 over #2?
Tell me.</p>
<p>The majority would pick #2, no question.</p>
<p>They <em>are</em> obsessed with math and science which means you would find some people picking 1. However, the large majority would still pick 2. Of course, most students do have a job for the summer.</p>
<p>You've picked interesting options. Personally, I'm not inclined to do either.</p>
<p>Both. I love math, but I coudlnt spend 13 hours per day, every day of the summer doing nohting but math. Likewise, I'd probably kill myself after more than 6 hours of straight Halo. Too much of anything can be bad, no matter how much you love it. I'd go with the math, and then I'd take a break and play some Halo when my mind was getting tired of working lol, then go back to the math, and the wonderul cycle continues. Of course, that's assuming I could only do one or the other and nohting else. Obviously, I think pretty much ne1 would get bored doing nothing except math and halo the entire summer.
That being said, I'm certainly not a Caltech student so maybe theyre different lol maybe they dont need breaks like us humans do lol.</p>
<p>Hmm... I was admitted, and I'd definitely choose math, at least at the beginning of the summer. But only if the other option is Halo 3... I lack hand-eye coordination.</p>
<p>A very thought-provoking question.</p>
<p>There are two problems with it. The first is not so important but worth pointing out. Art of Problem Solving is a little too easy, at least for many Techers who like math. And not all Techers like pure cleverness-oriented math puzzles. You'd have to pick the "math/science" treatment to be a "fun" academic activity at the level of each individual Techer. So for math Olympiad types it could be Putnam exam problems, and for engineering types it could be building your own GPS device from scratch. But a decent approximation would be to consider one major for this study, say EE, and pick an activity that most EE people would get excited about at least in principle.</p>
<p>More importantly, even after we do that, your study is not at all the right one to get at the thing you want to figure out. You want to estimate interest/passion/obsession, but the results will depend a lot more on self-control than on those things. The choice you should be giving these kids (and maybe this is what you were intending) is as follows:</p>
<p>Would you be willing to commit to doing at least x hours of [fun academic activity] per week for the summer? Or would you prefer not to commit to anything and to have free time to do whatever you want, like playing Halo 3?</p>
<p>"Commit" here means "agree to do something or be punished." The punishment can be something like being exiled to North Dakota for a year.</p>
<p>Without commitment, you would observe a majority of Techers playing Halo not because they really prefer that, in a reflective way, to doing math and science, but because they lack the self control to always do the things that they "really, in a deep and long-term way" want to do. (Hence, you observe me posting on this message board.) By giving the option to commit to something, you find out what their rational, long-term selves really want. In this case most if not all Techers would pick a pretty high x, say over 60 hours a week.</p>
<p>How do I know this? Every single person who agreed to go to Caltech committed to four years of the most intense math and science bootcamp in the country; if they fail to put in a lot of time working, they'll fail out and have to restart their educations, which may be quite hard, and is likely to be much worse than North Dakota. That is, we already ran the experiment, and by definition, all Techers are in the "obsessed" category. So, after the study is amended so that it elicits what you intend to elicit, 100% of Techers are in your category (1).</p>
<p>So, you mean to say Caltech students are forced to pick #1 because they are commited to it?
If so, thats okay. But what about entering freshman? They aren't commited yet. They are in high school as of now right? What about them?</p>
<p>Option #3: My son will be working to help pay for college! What he does in his free time beyond that is up to him.</p>
<p>In reality, study is more or less forced, even in the area that someone is naturally good at. Generally, most people can read through an interesting novel in a breath without feeling being forced. But doing math/ physics or reading biology/ biochemistry is a different story. My D likes math competitions for the sake of social events, meeting people all over the state and sometimes all over the country (ARML and HMMT). But if you ask her to study for the competitions, it would be like torture. </p>
<p>If everything is like what Ben said about Caltech (60 hours/ week), I doubt whether she can survive (she is admitted to Caltech). I dont see that kind of discipline in her. Giving her choices of computer games vs. doing math, she would be sitting in front of computer playing games all day long. </p>
<p>My personal experience told me that generally people study only when there is a test in a few days or people work effectively only before the deadline is getting close. And most people will not start the project until the last minute. I remember when I was in graduate school, I only studied during the last three days before a major final exam. Only then, things I read would actually get into my mind. Another thing with me was when I felt reasonably prepared for an A, even I only had three days to prepare, I would get loose again and my brain would become resistant to any more information (A was given to top 15% scorers, 1SD above the average score). I knew I should study earlier, but before you get to that final urgent stage, even you opened up the book and tried, your mind was just no where to be found.</p>
<p>@countindown, what kind of work your S will be doing during this last summer before college? Is finding a job his own desire or your request?</p>
<p>WorrieMom -- my point is that you can tell more about people's true desires by seeing what they are willing to commit to doing, not by seeing what they do in the absence of commitment. Most Techers would be excited to do math for several days without commitment, but then lack the self control to do it every day for a summer. But they would be happy to commit, which says that they really want to do this in a deep and long term way.</p>
<p>Same answer to susan4... it's not like it's really a "choice" whether you put in that work, 60 hours per week. Once you've committed to Caltech, you are well motivated to do it and finding the will is often not a problem since there are lots of short term incentives (problem set due in 3 hours, for instance). The value of a good university education is that someone FORCES you to do the stuff you know is good for you, which you couldn't muster the will to do otherwise.</p>
<p>Ben raises a good point when he mentions the "first problem". I would hate to do problems from AoPS over the summer, I'd be bored out of my mind. That being said, a lot of times I really enjoy the research I do (I'm a EE and I do a lot of nanofabrication type stuff).</p>
<p>Worriemom, DS is a Caltech sophomore, majoring in math. Over winter break He continued to live on Caltech time(sleep as late as possible & stay up all night). When we passed each other during the few waking hours we shared, I'd ask what he'd been up to - he'd tell me he was on line, chatting, watching movies or playing on-line games (I don't know if he plays Halo). So I would have guessed my Caltech student would picked option 2 - play Halo 3. However after DS returned to school I went in to clear off his desk as our house was for sale & potential buyers would be coming in. What did I find covered his desk? Math. Page after page of mathematics. Clearly between chatting, watching movies and playing on-line games, DS was working on math. It seemed to be just some problem(s) of interest to him as all math books had been packed and he'd brought no books home from Pasadena.<br>
So my guess is that if my son were given the options you propose: he'd tell you he'd pick play Halo 3. But while he was playing, he'd be working on math problems on the side. I doubt he'd pick AOPS problems, but other problems of interest to him like Putnam problems or just something he's thought about himself.</p>
<p>susan4,
My kids have known since junior high that they would need to work to help fund college. No big surprise there. They also know they'll be taking Stafford loans. This is the tradeoff for us being able to consider the colleges on his list. He is pretty frugal with his $$, but he'll need more than what's in his savings account now to pay for books and spending $$. </p>
<p>DS would like to teach at a math program he attended, but can't apply til after freshman year. He is looking into some summer opportunities that will take advantage of his programming skills -- not sure what will come through yet, but he has some marketable skills. Some are formal internship programs, one is teaching Java at a programming camp. He may sign up with a temp agency.</p>
<p>Oaklandmom, I find piles of proofs and programs all over our computer room, too. These are often done while IMing, gaming, doing English homework... I'm afraid to throw any of it out! He has a whiteboard in the family room that has a formula from the early stages of his Intel research project. I have no idea if it has any significance, or if it even <em>relates</em> to the darned project. I just know it's math without numbers, and I'm not touching it.</p>
<p>Countingdown, I can so relate! I have no idea if any of those papers has any significance!</p>
<p>As another admitted student I can understand what you are talking about. I often have several of what i call "projects" ongoing at any given time. As a result I leave piles of related papers around the house. For the most part I work on something for a day or two and then forget it for a while. My parents often move or reorganise the papers which I find frustrating but other times I never get back to things and don't care. While I realise that sometimes I postpone work until near a deadline, for most things I agree with Ben Golub. When it comes to school work I try to commit to split up the work and set myself steps to achieving my goals. The same goes for my projects, especially during breaks or teh summer when I have more time. While I do relax more at these times, I fill some of the void left by work by increasing my work on "projects" and structuring that work more.</p>