If you were forced

Colleges and Universities A-Z Amherst College
21

<p>Ok.. I have links to the data sets of Swarthmore, Williams, and Amherst
At each school, the percentage distribution of URMS is as follows:
<a href="http://www.amherst.edu/about_amh/cds/2006/CDS2006_B_Enrollment_Persistence.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amherst.edu/about_amh/cds/2006/CDS2006_B_Enrollment_Persistence.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.williams.edu/admin/provost/ir/CDS2006_2007.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/admin/provost/ir/CDS2006_2007.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/institutional_research/cds2006.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/institutional_research/cds2006.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Amherst:
BLACK-9.2%
HISP- 7.4%
ASIAN-AM-12.6%</p>

<p>Williams
BLACK- 9.7%
HISP- 8.5%
ASIAN-AM- 10.5%</p>

<p>Swarthmore
BLACK-8.8%
HISP- 10.4%
ASIAN-AM- 15.9%</p>

<p>I find your constant berating of Williams offensive and completely inaccurate. In contrast to your implication, Williams enrolls a greater percentage of Black students that either Swarthmore or Amherst. The only real difference between the three schools shows up in the percentage of Asian Americans. The tiny percentage differences you dwell upon are quite meaningless when describing the overall student body. In addition, the academic characteristics as measured by SAT scores and percentage of students in the top 10% of their high school classes are virtually identical between all three schools.</p>

<p>Where is the latest pell grant information? As I recall, the difference in percentages of pell grant recipients between Williams and Swarthmore was less than 2 percentage points.</p>

<p>P.S. What are you doing up at 2;25 AM?</p>

22

<p>I don't want to throw fuel in this fire but the numbers I have seen agree with Mikey's. And, having been on the campuses in question recently, my anecdoctal experience tells me that the differences aren't large in the areas in question.</p>

<p>I don't know what the percentages of private school students are at each of the colleges, but I'm not sure that that number tells anyone much. In our area, the private independent and parochial schools are much more diverse in terms of race and national heritage/origin than many of the public schools, and there is often more income diversity within the minority families than there is in the public schools.</p>

23

<p>Very true. And Williams could just as easily be characterized as "diverse, academic" and Amherst as the other obviously biased comment from IDad -- clearly intended to be inflammatory.</p>

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<p>warning: this is not meant to be inflammatory at all, im just trying to understand what was said</p>

<p>maybe idad was commenting on how each college pushes athletics (by calling williams a 'jock' school whereas swarthmore does not push athletics as much intellectual pursuits? and then whoever said amherst as a mix of the two...that is self explanatory.</p>

<p>this makes somewhat sense to me (although i do not know about the validity) because i have heard of top-tier schools (i.e harvard) that push their athletic schedules all crazy-like.</p>

25

<p>"percentages of students qualifying for financial aid ... percentage of public school students, etc."</p>

<p>From Williams, Swarthmore and Amherst websites/Class of 2010:</p>

<p>Amherst: 52% receiving scholarship and grant aid
Swarthmore: 49% receiving aid
Williams: 50% receiving Williams, federal, state and private financial aid</p>

<p>Amherst: public schools 58%, private 33%, parochial/home 9%
Swarthmore: public schools 65%, private independent 21%, 5% parochial, 9% overseas
Williams: public schools 59%, private 31%, parochial 10%</p>

<p>Amherst: 16% first generation college students
Williams: 16% first generation students</p>

<p>Amherst: 6% non-US students, 19 countries
Swarthmore: 6% international students, 22 countries
Williams: 8% non-US students, 28 foreign countries</p>

<p>Amherst: SAT Verbal 711, Math 706
Williams: SAT Critical Reading 709, Math 708</p>

<p>Amherst: 86% in top 10%
Swarthmore: 82% in top 10%
Williams: 92% in top 10%</p>

<p>Seems like they are a lot more alike than very different in many regards.</p>

<hr>

<p>At Williams, there is a strict "division of the day," wherein no extracurricular activities can be scheduled until after the end of classes.</p>

26

<p>onemoremon -
Thanks for hunting up the numbers.</p>

<p>One thing I notice for all these schools is that the percentage of parochial school kids has grown over the years. I was talking with someone from the Williams Class of 1964 the other day. He asked me in passing where the Catholic Church was in Williamstown and remarked that his roommate had been Catholic and had had to get special permission from his diocese to attend Williams rather than a Catholic university. Apparently, there were so few parochial school students back then that Williams did not even break them out in a separate category when it compiled its statistics: the categories were something like "boarding schools" and "public schools" with no room for anything else.</p>

<p>Sorry to highjack your thread, but I think that the admitted students in the three colleges are rather similar statistically and I'm really interested in how all three schools have changed over the years. My sense is that the general impression (if any - the curse of the LACs) held of each of the schools by people over 40 is often still being driven by the way the schools used to be. Things have changed. Example: (per above) 40 years ago there were so few Catholic students at Williams that the school did not break admits from parochial schools out separately; today, Williams is looking to hire a fulltime ordained Catholic priest to supplement its chaplaincy positions.</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
Amherst: 52% receiving scholarship and grant aid
Swarthmore: 49% receiving aid
Williams: 50% receiving Williams, federal, state and private financial aid

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These numbers are comparing apples to oranges. Williams' number is not correct...it may be for first year students only or it may include students who get federal work study/loans but no college grant aid (cash money tuition discounts).</p>

<p>In any case, the correct numbers from all three schools' new 2006-07 Common Data Set filings (percentage of full-time students receiving actual cash money tuition discounts):</p>

<p>Amherst 46%
Swarthmore 49%
Williams 43%</p>

<p>This is a rather significant spread, by the way, considering that statistically (SATs, etc.) the student bodies are identical.</p>

<hr>

<p>The Williams number for international students is also wrong. It's 6.3% for the entire undergrad student body.</p>

<hr>

<p>Grace:</p>

<p>It's probably worthwhile to note that the Jersey, New York, and New England parochial schools are huge athletic recruiting haunts for Div III helmet sports. The lack of football and ice hockey alone could account for the difference between Swarthmore and Amherst/Williams on this number.</p>

<hr>

<p>MastaTTTTang:</p>

<p>Yes, I was referring to the two word "stereotypes" that are applied to all colleges. If you asked a sample of high school seniors to give one or two word descriptions of the LACS, I guarantee that Swarthmore's would be "braniacs" or "geeks", Williams would be "jocks" and increasingly "party on, dude". I'm not sure about Amherst. Like I say, Amherst has qualities of both to an extent that you seldom see anyone attempt a stereotype description. Back in the day, it was "Preppie" with a capital P, but Amherst has really changed that with its very aggressive diversity efforts. It's now a very popular choice for minority students</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
At Williams, there is a strict "division of the day," wherein no extracurricular activities can be scheduled until after the end of classes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>On paper, yes. In practice, no.</p>

<p>See Report on Varsity Athletics:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ephblog.com/archives/images/athletic_report.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ephblog.com/archives/images/athletic_report.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>"it may be for first year students only"
Exactly -- if you'll notice, these are statistics for the "Class of 2010"</p>

<p>"The Williams number for international students is also wrong."
Incorrect -- these are also the statistics for the Class of 2010.</p>

<p>Do you notice a trend here?</p>

<p>By the way, are you also bitter that Williams was a bad fit for you or your child/ren, or, rather, peeved that Swarthmore is not "ranked" higher?</p>

<hr>

<p>"brainiacs or geeks" when those in the top 10% number only 82% vs. 86% or 92% ("a rather significant spread, by the way")?</p>

<p>And the athletic report you link to utilizes data that is, at its most recent, at least five years old.</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
By the way, are you also bitter that Williams was a bad fit for you or your child/ren, or, rather, peeved that Swarthmore is not "ranked" higher?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Neither. </p>

<p>Both my wife and I enjoyed our years at Williams. Great education. Many fond memories of professors like Don Gifford. Events like Pink Floyd in Chapin Hall. Contributed to the annual fund on Saturday.</p>

<p>Couldn't care less about USNEWS ranking. Amherst and Swarthmore swapped the top spot back and forth throughout the late 1990s and early 2000s. It's Williams turn. Just like it has been since USNEWS began their rankings 25 years ago.</p>

<p>None of that changes the fact that, although all three schools are as good as it gets, especially in terms of financial resources, they are different, with different institutional priorities, different campus cultures, and different locations -- each with strengths and weaknesses, depending on what aspects of an LAC community you value.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"brainiacs or geeks" when those in the top 10% number only 82% vs. 86% or 92% ("a rather significant spread, by the way")?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wouldn't put much stock in those percentages. Only 38.8% of Williams freshmen reported a class rank. The percentages for Amherst and Williams are much higher (58% to 59% reporting).</p>

<p>
[quote]
And the athletic report you link to utilizes data that is, at its most recent, at least five years old.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, but the "division of the day" regulation you cited dates back at least 35 years. It was in place when I was at Williams. I'm not sure when captain's practices began to impinge on the spirit of the regulation. Probably in the late 1980s.</p>

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<p>could we keep away from the personal attacks please? not only is it rude but it isn't helping anyone learn anything (which is supposed to be the point of this forum)</p>

<p>i am very interested on what all of you have to say about what i-dad said...
"None of that changes the fact that, although all three schools are as good as it gets, especially in terms of financial resources, they are different, with different institutional priorities, different campus cultures, and different locations -- each with strengths and weaknesses, depending on what aspects of an LAC community you value."</p>

<p>a response pertaining to ^^that^^ would be much more helpful for me :)</p>

<p>thanks!</p>

32

<p>im also kind of curious as to how the academic environment is at amherst. i come from a small-medium hs (1500 kids total) and i have already had my fill of super competitive students who after a test is handed back or something will start the "what did YOU get" garbage. my 'research' says that amherst is pretty laid back and cooperative but i am wondering what you all think?</p>

33

<p>Interesteddad said:</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>I've no doubt that Amherst has more minorities than it did thirty years ago (what college doesn't?) But, that doesn't mean it's any less preppy. These days, it's not unusual to be both a minority and a preppie, particularly if you are a minority that was recruited from one of Amherst's traditional feeder schools --which are themselves recruiting much more heavily in urban areas. On the flip side, consider the plight of urban, white hipsters who suffer nearly as much, if not more, from stereotyping than the traditional preppies ever did and don't have the offsetting advantage of URM status.</p>

34

<p>"I'm not sure when captain's practices began to impinge on the spirit of the regulation."</p>

<p>Captain's practices are just that -- not conducted by the coaching staff, optional, and only attended if classes are not scheduled at the same time. All Ephs know that.</p>

<p>Also, I could easily characterize Swarthmore students as "potheads who do a lot of drugs'' -- but I'd rather not attribute the activity of a significant part of the student body to the entire population.</p>

35

<p>
[quote]
Captain's practices are just that -- not conducted by the coaching staff, optional, and only attended if classes are not scheduled at the same time. All Ephs know that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is not what the faculty report on athletics suggested. The report cited a signficant number of faculty expressing concerns about practices taking precedence over classes. Of course, the most famous faculty comment described Williams as "a Nike camp, with enrichment classes."</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, I could easily characterize Swarthmore students as "potheads who do a lot of drugs'' -- but I'd rather not attribute the activity of a significant part of the student body to the entire population.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You could characterize anyway you like. However, you would have a hard time finding a faculty report, Clerey Act disciplinary reporting stats, campus newpaper articles, or guidebook comments in support of that.</p>

<p>Learning about colleges requires piecing together datapoints from a number of sources. Reading school newspapers to get a sense of the "big issues" perceived on campus is a great place to start. For example, we know that the Amherst President's proposal to increase diversity on campus is a major priority at the school. If a school were having a problem with a large number of alcohol poisoning hospitalizations, that would probably show up in the campus newspaper sooner or later.</p>

36

<p>"That is not what the faculty report on athletics suggested."</p>

<p>Suggested?</p>

<p>"And the athletic report you link to utilizes data that is, at its most recent, at least five years old."</p>

37

<p>Since onemoremom asked about drug use, here are federally reported Cleary Act statistics for Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore. These are totals for the most recent three year period (2003, 04, 05) since there is considerable year to year variation. I've combined on-campus and off-campus for each category, so getting busted smoking a joint in your dorm room or walking around downtown Amherst would be included. Disciplinary actions are college referrals (dean's justice), arrests are the local police. Obviously, the totals can reflect both the prevalence of the behavior and/or the diligence of the enforcement, both of which are probably of interest to prospective students:</p>

<p>Drug Law Disciplinary referrals:</p>

<p>Amherst 49
Swarthmore 8
Williams 74</p>

<p>Drug Law arrests:</p>

<p>Amherst 8
Swarthmore 5
Williams 8</p>

<p>Liquor Law Disciplinary referrals:</p>

<p>Amherst 454
Swarthmore 23
Williams 376</p>

<p>Liquor Law arrests:</p>

<p>Amherst 35
Swarthmore 34
Williams 20</p>

<p>Illegal Weapons Disciplinary referrals:</p>

<p>Amherst 3
Swarthmore 0
Williams 11</p>

<p>Illegal weapons arrests:</p>

<p>Amherst 1
Swarthmore 0
Williams 2</p>

38

<p>"The crime data reported by the institutions have not been subjected to independent verification by the U.S. Department of Education. Therefore, the Department cannot vouch for the accuracy of the data reported here."</p>

39

<p>That's pretty lame.</p>

<p>Are you suggesting that these colleges falsify their federally mandated campus crime statistics reporting? Go to ANY college website and search for "Clery Act" for the annual reports required by the federal government. Colleges take this reporting pretty seriously.</p>

<p>Fifteen colleges have been sanctioned since the Clery Act came into law in 1990. Sanctions have been as high as $200,000 fines. 185 colleges have been investigated under the law. Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore are not among them:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.securityoncampus.org/schools/cleryact/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.securityoncampus.org/schools/cleryact/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

40

<p>Don't complain to me that it's lame -- take it up with the U.S. Department of Education. It's quoted directly from their site.</p>