im a black female with a 3.9 gpa

Colleges & Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
41

<p>I find it interesting, Ben, that you are taking a harder line again now. After we already discussed possible reasons for making race itself a factor in AA. :)</p>

<p>If race and gender did not give applicants a disadvantage in the subconscious of most people ("racial schemas" and "gender schemas"), I would also oppose using them as factors in and of themselves, because of course the need for such a thing is incredibly unfortunate. In my perfect world I would be able to oppose them.</p>

<p>Also, quickflood, I congratulate you on your wonderful accomplishments, but I find the notion of "America is as good as it gets. Don't ask for more than what is already given," to be patently ridiculous. When the US was a British colony, we had it as good as it got as far as colonies went. We were treated super-well. Didn't stop us from asking or working for more, nor should it have.</p>

<p>There's an interesting thread over in the parents' forum about URM students being treated differently by high school guidance counselors - more likely to be discouraged from applying to competitive schools even with equally good stats.</p>

42

<p>Jessie -- I remain optimistic about finding ways to measure disadvantage (including from racial discrimination) other than the color of people's skin. You convinced me of the fundamenal point that this might sometimes be impossible. But I don't think we're currently trying hard enough.</p>

43

<p>pebbles. I am flattered, and like you also. </p>

<p>the [ ] defy Ben Golub box is not yet available on the MIT application, but the group checking it would probably be insufficiently underrepresented to merit extra consideration. :'(</p>

44

<p>Ugh, if I could have rewritten my letters of rec by replacing my name with "applicant" and all female pronouns with the word "it," I so totally would have. I completely agree that I don't see how "My skin isn't white" means the same thing as "My life sucks." More to the point, I think it's utterly patronizing and disgusting that we have created a system which exploits that idea.</p>

<p>Colleges (and I think we can say this applies to most, not just MIT) are focusing more on "context" and "fit," given the rise in applications over recent years. So I don't see why we can't just throw all these disadvantages into that whole "context of the application" category. I'd be all for removing all references to race and gender from the application at all. After all, what really is the difference between a poor, first-generation college student Hispanic kid who has experienced racism and a poor, first-generation college student white kid who was mocked mercilessly in school for being say, overweight? </p>

<p>I can already see myself being torn apart for this, but really- what exactly is the difference between making fun of someone because of skin color or because of their weight? Or because of their stutter, their second-hand clothing, their intelligence....</p>

<p>(P.S. I only wrote this because I thought it would make Ben like me.)</p>

45

<p>And how you have succeeded! <em>bounce</em> mm, I like Laura.</p>

<p>Since some minority students seem to want it, I don't see anything wrong in principle with including a box that says "Please don't consider my {race, gender} in evaluating my applyication." Perhaps it could go next to the Defy Ben Golub box.</p>

<p>Being a baby economist, however, has apparently taught me something about thinking through others' incentives. (In this case, MIT's.) First, this kind of box would entail admitting at least the possibility that race and gender play a role. Surely, that isn't so fun. (Though, if MIT does it in filings with the obscure and secret Supreme Court, it can't be that bad.)</p>

<p>A more serious problem is that people would quickly ask about the differences in admit rates between people who do and don't check that box. Those numbers might be meaningless, but people might still ask to look at meaningless numbers. MIT would have three ways to react</p>

<p>(1) We won't tell you. ("Did you hit your sister?" -- "No." -- "Did you bite your sister" -- "No." -- "Did you scratch your sister?" -- "I refuse to answer.")</p>

<p>(2) Treat the box-checkers the same as the not-box-checkers of the given minority group, since minority status is often so very, very easy to guess. (But that would be disrespectful of applicants' wishes, and I'm sure MIT wouldn't go anywhere near doing that.)</p>

<p>(3) Release the numbers and prepare to curl up in a very small, tight ball because Ben Golub and other infidels will twist them into seditious nonsense.</p>

<p>You can see that none of these options is particularly attractive, and if MIT hired me to make the decision and then live with the consequences, I'd rather marry sakky than say yes to the box.</p>

46

<p>I hate the part of an application where you have to fill in your race. I think everyone should decline to answer. I understand the point of things such as AA and giving underrepresented groups a chance. I just feel that the end goal is for these things to not matter at all, so why not start now. Consider people on merit and no one can say "he got in because he's african-american" or "she got in because its easier for girls." I always view taking race and gender into account as discrimination whether it helps or hurts someone's chances. The end does not justify the means.</p>

47

<p>point #1) i dislike getting tagged as AA along with all of you, im not saying i want its benefits or anything to do with it, but there are some who should be recognized. its almost like a social welfare system.</p>

<p>if anyone is interested, please read the book concerning Cedric Jennings titled A Hope in the Unseen.</p>

<p>second point)do we know what they actually do with that checkbox? do you really believe that they admit someone purely because they are of a different race? are there not qualified applicants who happen to come from different races that have had to overcome a lot of hardship? i dont know if i buy that an applicant is deferred or rejected purely based on race. maybe i'm very, very wrong, i dont know. but it doesnt seem like it would still be legal if it was so skewed. I think its more of a matter of opening up doors to kids that have not had doors opened throughout their lives than racial stereotyping. for instance, im first-gen in college in my family. ive had to do a lot of work by myself whereas my friend has a dad who is a math teacher and gives him all the help he needs. is that fair? no, thats life. theres a correlation between education in some cultures as opposed to others and AA aims to try and remove it. i agree it is one of those things where "does the end justify the means?" and where i am right now, even though i dont want to be tagged with it, i know that ive had it easy compared to some. and to say thats life just isnt fair</p>

48

<p>^-- this post is interesting and insightful, but you do one thing that's often done and confuses the issue. Saying that race tips the scales sometimes and influences admissions decisions is very far away from saying some unqualified people are admitted. You can quite easily have the first without having the second, and indeed you do.</p>

<p>The fact that nobody gets in who is actually incompetent to do the work, taken alone, does not say much about affirmative action or fairness or any of that good stuff.</p>

49

<p>ben, also, im not completely hardcore AA as i am arguing, but i am also trying to play devils advocate a bit, as no one else seemed to stand up for it, i was simply showing the other side. no harm done, i hope :-)</p>

<p>to respond to what you say, though, im sorry i sort of went off on a tangent. part of AA is that different cultures and socioeconomic classes tend to (and i know this is a generalization and i might get crucified for it) stress education as a value over others. oftentimes education is second to survival, and being a minority can land unwanted hostility. some of the effort that may not be reflected in an applicant's stats can possibly be reflected in an explanation as to how being a minority has changed that one person's life, or at least thats how i have understood it. its hard to cite evidence or stats as to who would have gotten in if they were not URM, and i'm not going to say that it doesnt affect a decision, but when it does affect a decision usually there is more to it than, one kid is white and another is hispanic. if the hispanic kid says, well i have been treated terribly due to being a minority in a hostile environment, and still have this passion for learning, and the white kid says, ive pretty much gone through school scot-free, then it plays into the picture.</p>

<p>again, im just seeing the other side, and i dont want to provoke any ill will, but its a tough internal battle for me and everyone else it seems, so we can definately help each other through a civilized discussion.</p>

50

<p>I think everything you say above is correct and I've often thought the same things. No ill will there.</p>

51

<p>I believe that most minority students tagged with AA in prestigious colleges are more or less like me. that is to say that they've never faced any disadvantages due to race. The ones that really did face setbacks are probably not applying to really prestigious schools and likely to have bad grades. so basically AA is useless to help real disadvantaged students in prestigious schools anyway. it is there to help the non-disadvantaged minorities maybe just for creating diversity on campus. Remember America has this fear of not being diverse. the school's reputation would be ruined if someone complain that it is too homogeneous.
Another thing, even if you don't have to fill out race/sex and not use gender pronouns. Some people with SAT II scores in foreign language will still show their race. (also last names)</p>

52

<p>"But I don't think we're currently trying hard enough."</p>

<p>Ben,</p>

<p>Something we both can agree on!</p>

53

<p>well, im going to be the idiot and continue playing with fire for a bit...</p>

<p>is there any way we can check to see if someone is using race as a card to get into college? there isnt any standard story or anything so it is a little tough to say ok you are being illegally helped by AA, etc. i would also like to bring up that there are other things people do, such as report their incomes lower than they actually are to get FA, that have the same problem as the steroid scandal in baseball, its hard to check people out with limited amounts of time. im trying to understand for my own conscience's sake why AA is still there, but as everyone was ready to point out, there are problems associated with it. a lot of these kids are most likely helped without merit because of who they appear to be (also, im not sure about this as ive never had one, but do interviews ever ask questions about how you have been affected by being a URM?). it still seems to me that you are breaking social cycles for kids who are motivated, as if they are applying to top schools, they have to believe that they can succeed there, getting into college is not an end-all. i know at least for my family i am doing just that. weve had our share of rough times, and for the some, maybe not the majority, that are trying to change their future, it makes a difference.</p>

<p>also, is being a minority relative? does the only white kid in a school of hispanics get considered for AA? i was just wondering about this, because it would be a similar situation, and if that kid does not, then it changes my view of AA quite a bit...</p>

54

<p>Moving on to another measure of ability, effort and environment lets look at the AP test. Alaska:</p>

<p><a href="http://collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/exgrd_sum/2005.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/exgrd_sum/2005.html&lt;/a> </p>

<pre><code> It is a lot easier for me to evaluate our state as there are far fewer test takers, and for one test, our high school was the only participant in the state.

</code></pre>

<p>Notice there is quite a large variation in scores by ethnicity. In our community the difference is much larger than state average. I do not claim to understand the reasons for this difference but should we as a society ignore the obvious or should we redouble our efforts to understand and minimize differences between all members of our society?</p>

55

<p>There's a fascinating perspective in this week's Nature on discrimination in science. It focuses mainly on gender discrimination, but there is some mention of racial discrimination as well as discrimination due to sexual orientation.</p>

<p>It was written by Ben Barres, a neurobiologist at Stanford who was an undergraduate at MIT. He graduated in 1976 in course 7, although when he was at MIT he was a female named Barbara -- he went through gender-reassignment surgery nine years ago. He is, therefore, possibly the only person to have experienced elite science as both a man and as a woman. (Note: I totally interviewed with him at Stanford, and he's awesome. We talked about undergraduate life at MIT for the entire interview.)</p>

<p>I put the PDF in my Athena locker for those who don't have access to Nature: Barres</a> paper</p>

<p>Some great quotes:

[quote]

Despite powerful social factors that discourage women from studying maths and science from a very young age, there is little evidence that gender differences in maths abilities exist, are innate or are even relevant to the lack of advancement of women in science.

[/quote]

[quote]

By far, the main difference that I have noticed [since surgery] is that people who don’t know I am transgendered treat me with much more respect: I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man.

[/quote]

[quote]

Shortly after I changed sex, a faculty member was heard to say "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister’s."

[/quote]

[quote]

Studies reveal that in many selection processes, the bar is unconsciously raised so high for women and minority candidates that few emerge as winners. For instance, one study found that women applying for a research grant needed to be 2.5 times more productive than men in order to be considered equally competent.

[/quote]
</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
He is, therefore, possibly the only person to have experienced elite science as both a man and as a woman.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Somehow I doubt this very strongly. I've had two MTF transgendered friends (that I'm aware of) at MIT. One of whom is now a grad student at a top math program. And there's even a whole livejournal community for trans people in academia. It's an interesting perspective for exploration of gender-based bias.</p>

57

<p>Without reading the rest of the thread: Whatever it is, that MIT is doing or not doing, ends up producing a more well-rounded class, and therefore I support it. Obviously all of the people who get in are technically qualified anyway, and nobody is entitled to get in. But from what I know of MIT admissions, mentioning race on a what-are-my-chances thread may or may not be relevant, it depends on context. Certainly it should not be the subject that sparks the most discussion regarding a prospect's chances, as has happened here..</p>

58

<p>Ack, Jessie, how completely blockheaded of me. I was going to say "...one of the few people to have experienced..." but then I changed it because I couldn't think of anyone else off the top of my head. I'll amend to say that he's one of the most prominent people to have experienced elite science as a man and as a woman, and is extremely open about it to boot.</p>

59

<p>
[quote]
mentioning race on a what-are-my-chances thread may or may not be relevant, it depends on context

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unfortunately, probably not true. See the cornucopia of previous threads on this issue and the famous Supreme Court filing about race for race's sake vs. context (in which MIT sides with the first thing).</p>

60

<p>no one answered my question, does a white kid who is in a predominantly (lets say like 90% and up) other culture school get considered for AA? or is AA considered only in terms of the school's applicant pool?</p>