I'm not a fan of "fit"

College Search & Selection
1

<p>. . . At least not the way that I see many prospective students on CC approach it.</p>

<p>Setting certain criteria is perfectly reasonable. You want a large university or a small college? - sure. Want to restrict your search to a certain geographic area? - that's understandable. You want to choose schools that offer particular academic or extracurricular interests that you're wanting to pursue? - of course.</p>

<p>But for many posters on CC, "fit" seems to be expressed as "Help me find a place where most people are just like me; where I'll be told that my 18-year-old preferences and beliefs are absolutely right and won't be challenged or stretched; where I can cloister myself among like co-ideologues so that we can reinforce each others' biases and preconceived limits."</p>

<p>Here's my advice to students about seeking "fit": Do you consider yourself conservative? Then find a college with a healthy population of left-leaning students. You think you're liberal? Look for a place that leans slightly to the other side. Are you closely affiliated with a particular faith or denomination? Do not attend a college run by that denomination and avoid overtly evangelical campuses at all costs. Find friends and roommates who are of different regions, nationalities, races, faiths, political leanings, subcultures, favored attires and hair styles. Attend campus events built around activities in which you don't presently have a professed interest.</p>

<p>Families tend to reinforce each of their individual members' beliefs. Churches offer a culturally-approved way to self-segregate and avoid those who are different. Neighborhoods often tend to reflect socio-economic or ethnic norms. College is the best opportunity of your life to get out and experience the "different." And learning to embrace difference and to be comfortable (or ideally, enthusiastic) among it is perhaps the best life- and career-preparation skill that one can have for this century.</p>

<p>Well . . . it felt good to get that off my chest. Am I over-reacting?</p>

2

<p>It’s hard enough to leave home for the first time. Kids are going much further from home these days to get the best education they can “afford.” </p>

<p>I don’t disagree with what you are saying, in principle, but in practice, kids leaving home for the first time have enough to work on in their life. They might as well go where they feel “at home.”</p>

<p>YMMV</p>

3

<p>You make a good point. I do think that the right level of challenge is different for each kid. Some might be so challenged by being away from home that they will do better in a more comfortable environment. Others might be ready for more.</p>

<p>I have a different concern about the concept of finding “the right fit.” I think it’s great that our kids are being told to look beyond the rankings to find a school that meets their own needs. But I see a different kind of pressure emerging: the pressure to find “the right” fit, as though the end result of a kid’s college search is to find the one, single, optimal, perfect school for herself. This increases the demands for spending time on research and visits, leaving kids feeling confused and inadequate if they actually like lots of different schools. I see it on this board when someone posts their “list” and gets criticized for having widely varying types of colleges on it. Why can’t a 17-year-old see himself succeeding in urban environments as well as rural, large schools as well as small? These kids are still learning about themselves. The pressure to find the Right Fit can leave them upset and disheartened if they don’t love the school when they get there, and feeling like a failure if they later transfer.</p>

<p>Sure, college is a big, important decision, but it needn’t take over kids’ lives for the last years of high school. (Says the mom who reads this board almost daily. :))</p>

4

<p>I think “fit” is sometimes interpreted to mean…Expensive/private/elite = fit.</p>

<p>I see people saying that they’re glad that they spent $200k on whatever school because it was the right “fit” and their child “just wouldn’t have been happy” at another school that would have cost them less. I think that is just silly. I think most/all kids could be very happy at a number of schools.</p>

<p>I also think it’s odd than many don’t give much thought about “fit” for K-12 (and just send their kids to the local public no matter what), and then later they go on and on about “fit” for college.</p>

5

<p>Well, I think people do think about fit for k=12. For example where they choose to live, or the people who, when it doesn’t “fit,” send their kids to private school. Fit might be more important when a kid is leaving home, though, since the assumption is that the kid has “fit” at home in the home, whereas at college, they are living with others. The ‘fit’ is not about academics, I think, more about who they are living with.</p>

6

<p>Gadad, you bring up such great points. When I think of “fit”, I think of where will my child be successful. Will she like her school, classes, dorm mates, etc. I think of fit as best likelihood that they will stay and get invested in the community. </p>

<p>That being said my daughter must think like you because she wants to go to school in another region of the country because she wants to experience living in a different part of the country and experience the sub-culture of that region.</p>

7

<p>I think gadad’s message was spot on. Many of the criteria are set or negotiated (cost, weather, etc). After that it should be about experiencing the big, wide world. Part of that is learning from people with different mind sets (politically, nationally, whatever). Otherwise why not just get a job near home and experience the same thing for your whole life.</p>

8

<p>I am one of those that never believed in “fit.” I maybe leaning too much the other way, but to me, going to college is about getting an education, everything else is just nice to have. Getting a quality education is then tied to ranking of a school, and that usually gets most parents on CC very uptight.</p>

9

<p>People do seem to be applying to places farther and farther away from home. This may be an unintended result of the USNews rankings, in the sense that before the magazine started telling people where to look for the best schools, people tended to look in their own back yards first. Now, there’s not only a domestic demand for the same 30 or 40 American colleges and universities, but it’s gone global. Not being able to visit during the school year puts a premium on people gaining as much information from non-traditonal sources as possible and that includes the discussion forums on this very site.</p>

10

<p>But, I would argue, just for the sake of conversation, that the “fit” for a student whose family values the rankings is the highest ranked school. I would also argue that this is not a “bad” thing, at all. It just is. Fit is a lot of different things to a lot of people, but it probably has a lot to do with having a similar value system with the other students. JMO</p>

11

<p>I thinking avoiding the wrong fit is more important than finding the right fit.</p>

12

<p>every kid is different…some are ready to go far away and experience things out of their comfort zone while other kids are ready for the college work but not ready to spread their wings yet. While the college years are influential, the fact remains it’s only 4 years of your life…plenty of time to grow outside of those 4 years.</p>

13

<p>For me, “fit” means your kid should visit the campus (preferably overnight) and see how they feel about being there. I say this as someone who picked a university sight-unseen, and always felt a little out of place there - it was too earthy, too casual, with not enough school spirit and not enough diversity. I transferred to a university that had what I wanted my Junior year, but didn’t end up going because I didn’t want to leave my friends. I have some regrets about those 4 years that could have been avoided.</p>

14

<p>

To an extent, yes. The college search process is about helping students find the right colleges for them, not which colleges we would prefer they attend – though parents seem particularly prone to confuse the two. If a student thinks he would perform best in a certain environment, who are we to argue? That poster has had 10-13 years of school to figure out the type of environment in which he does or does not perform well. For a student coming from a conservative high school, attending a moderate or liberal college is a breath of fresh air; suggesting “places that lean slightly to the other side” smacks of condescension. </p>

<p>I’ll use myself as an example. I attended a very conservative public high school in NC for high school and was fairly closeted; consequently I chose colleges that were at least moderate in view. I attended a college that leans slightly left of center and was very happy. The LGBT community is out and respected there, and the university has the second largest LGBT center in the country (Penn has the largest). Fast forward to graduate school, and I chose a university with more conservative leanings – great for my area of study, which is all that matters, but it would’ve been an awful choice for undergrad. Although not overtly hostile, the campus is not nearly as welcoming toward LGBT individuals, and I wouldn’t have been nearly as comfortable with myself after four years here or even after four years at a more moderate campus like Rhodes or Wake Forest.</p>

<p>That is the reason single-sex colleges and HBCUs exist, after all. Such colleges are intended to provide nurturing environments for students of those attributes to bloom and develop. It can be at a loss of diversity, admittedly, but such students often perform exceedingly well nevertheless (a look at Wellesley or Bryn Mawr’s alum list says that much). </p>

<p>There is a place to draw the line, certainly. Some colleges bring their views into the classroom, and that is where problems arise. Liberty, for example, not only teaches “creation studies” but requires it. On the other end of the political spectrum, one has colleges like Columbia, UNC, and sadly Duke who have had faculty and/or students participate in the taunting of conservative speakers on campus, which is undignified and rude. That is where I agree with the OP, because politics have no place in the classroom. Any school with overtly strongly leanings in any particular area – politics, religion, what have you – is usually not a good choice for most students, as that’s not really how the real world works. There is a fine line between a comfort zone and a monolithic/utopian college community. </p>

<p>On the other hand, I think there is some confusion in what such posters are looking for. When students come on CC asking for “liberal” or “conservative” schools, I think they are asking for colleges at which they would feel comfortable as a liberal/conservative student, not necessarily the colleges that would vote for Dennis Kucinich or Jim DeMint for president, respectively. This is particularly the case for conservative students; since most colleges run strongly liberal (or at least their faculties do), it is important to such students to find colleges where conservative viewpoints are welcomed and accepted, even if not necessarily the majority – and I for one have no trouble with that. To use a different kind of example, it is often important for Jewish students to have a sizable Jewish community available. That is also a legitimate concern, particularly for LACs that tend to be rural and somewhat homogeneous. That does not mean, however, that such students are demanding schools comparable to Yeshiva.</p>

15

<p>I went to a small LAC back in the 80’s. I was one of handful of Asians on campus, and I think I felt out of place sometimes. Would I have been happier at Berkeley or Cornell? Maybe yes, and maybe not. I got very good small class experience, and I probably made more White friends than I would have at Berkeley. Because it had so many typical prep school (upper class) students, I felt out of place, but it also pushed me to adapt and learn many of those social etiquette that I probably wouldn’t have at other larger, and more diversed school.</p>

16

<p>There are lots of ways kids grow up in college. The liberal kid who chooses a conservative school, in order to experience the “other side,” may find himself with little opportunity to nurture and promote his particular liberal interests. Eg, there may be fewer social and political action groups or activities- or the ones that exist may be lame. Likewise, the religious kid, who wants to meet like-minded kids, maybe even find dates or a spouse, would be socially adrift if he/she were a radical minority. But, I agree one should be very cautious about a homogeneous environment, no matter what sort.</p>

17

<p>Over the years when I’ve looked at job situations, I’ve considered more than the nature of the jobs themselves. I’ve also considered the numerous various factors that go into guesstimating whether/ how much my family & I would want to live there.</p>

<p>College can be a seminal part of life, socially and extracurricularly as well as academically. If you put yourself in the right place. I think it is perfectly appropriate to consider all factors . D2 got it wrong, and actually transferred due to issues relating to fit. Such matters were certainly not irrelevant to her, as it turned out.</p>

<p>YMMV.</p>

18

<p>gadad raises some very interesting points. I agree with the general idea that “fit” is sometimes overrated, contributing to the view of some that there are few colleges at which the student could possibly be happy.</p>

<p>My daughter has decided that she is going to be happy wherever she goes. Climate and size of school don’t matter to her. However, some aspects of fit do matter, such as the intellectual v. party environment (feel free to suggest a better term). </p>

<p>A friend is completing a housing survey for her college. It asks something like: Do you plan to study 3 hours or fewer, 4 to 12 hours, or 13 hours or more per week? PER WEEK? I cannot imagine my daughter really being happy at a college where the number of student studying 3 hours or fewer is large enough that it is necessary to make it a category on the housing form. </p>

<p>WarblersRule makes a great point:

</p>

<p>Well said!</p>

19

<p>I’m usually not a touchy feely kind of guy, but count me in as one who thinks that fit IS very important even for the most adaptable among us. Some examples. </p>

<p>Georgia Tech flunks out a huge portion of their freshman engineering class, but the survivors are looked upon with great respect. WPI uses student evaluations in awarding tenure and surprise surprise, I see a ton resumes with a 4.0 GPAs, not all of whom know a lot. How to separate the wheat from the chaff? What is an employer to do. Nonetheless, WPI produces some excellent engineers. Someone with low self-esteem would get eaten alive at GT, but may thrive at WPI. </p>

<p>MIT has a math/science core, UChicago has a broader core, Brown has no requirements. Certainly, a top student would have a preference among these three depending on what and how they wanted to learn. Someone smart enough to get into one of these schools should also be smart enough to decide between them on a criteria other than ranking!</p>

<p>I knew someone who went to Hopkins undergrad and Princeton for grad school. She said that she was surprised that when someone at Princeton was doing poorly and hadn’t handed in a homework, they would get a phone call. Hopkins lets those who can’t swim sink. Better make sure you can swim before you sign up for Hopkins. </p>

<p>My nephew is at a mega huge OOS public because nothing in state had his intended major. Great football, but he hasn’t met a lot of people who are into their schooling. He’s starting transfer applications.</p>

<p>Another relative is in an engineering program at a big in-state public and can’t get the help he needs when he struggles, and recently couldn’t get the class he needs to graduate. In his case it would have been a better investment to go to a smaller private with a better support system where he would have learned more and been able to graduate in 4 years rather than 5 1/2. </p>

<p>As for ranking, I think that as long as your surrounded by your intellectual peers or people smarter than you, fit matters more than ranking.</p>

20

<p>From a psychology course:</p>

<p>"We tend to associate with others who are similar to ourselves…
Byrne (1971):
We like people who we perceive as having similar attitudes to our own
Rosenbaum (1986):
Similarity does not spark attraction; rather dissimilarity triggers repulsion, the desire to avoid someone "</p>

<p>When I have the choice, I tend not to put myself in situations where I am quite likely not going to like the environment, or the people there. Again, YMMV.</p>