I'm really turned off by the idea of eating clubs...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>POSTERX:</p>

<p>"At Harvard and Yale, only 5-10% of students are involved in any kind of frat or club. The school culture is so strong, most students don't need any kind of exclusive societies to join. For the vast majority of students, they have very little impact on their college experience."</p>

<p>that's a gross underestimate, and you know it. according to "yalesocietymember," re: the secret societies at yale:</p>

<p>"The society process impacts everyone at some point, especially during spring of the junior year. Around 300 students are eventually involved in societies as seniors, and many more are interviewed, so a sizable amount of people at least go through the process."</p>

<p>"Cornell, Dartmouth and MIT are starting to move away from some of their frat culture as well. Meanwhile, Princeton is sticking to its clubs/frats (whatever you want to call them) and 'most students' (or perhaps the students who are 'social' or the "right" students'?) participate - that's the main difference people see."</p>

<p>first of all, fraternities and sororities are only becoming MORE popular at top schools, regardless of administrative efforts. see this times piece on the rise of sororities and women-only private clubs at harvard, driven by "a desire to address age-old discrepancies at Harvard between social opportunities available to men and to women."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/fashion/20SORO.html?ex=1266555600&en=7965a1ac701967ba&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/fashion/20SORO.html?ex=1266555600&en=7965a1ac701967ba&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&lt;/a> </p>

<p>also, princeton is certainly NOT "sticking to its clubs/frats." for the last two years, the dean has sent a letter to the parents of every incoming freshman making them aware of role of greek institutions on campus. see:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1083245&postcount=19%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1083245&postcount=19&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>furthermore, it is at least impliedly cracking down on the eating clubs by introducing a four-year residential college system through which upperclassmen can take their meals in a college rather than a club. the effect, inevitably, will be to lure some upperclassmen away from the clubs.</p>

<p>BANGOO:</p>

<p>"If this pervasiveness does impact student bodies... In a short term measure, mandate every clubs non-selective ? In a long haul, institute a 4-year residential college system (like yale) ?"</p>

<p>princeton cannot simply dictate every club's selection procedure because the clubs are private entities. it can, however, and already IS, instituting a four-year residential college system, like yale. the idea to borrow from the oxbridge residential college system actually originated at princeton, under former president woodrow wilson, but went uninstituted at princeton until the early 1980s.</p>

<p>"Unless something is done about this, Pton would gradually descend to the rank of 2nd tier schools ... where u find a vast majority of students are smart, but not top-notched"</p>

<p>um, probably not. princeton has had the club system for over a century, and it is as well-positioned relative to its peers now as it ever has been. record app nos. last year.</p>

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<p>A more realistic and un-hyped way to look at eating clubs is as another EC. The fact that they're joined by most students only indicates that they're accessible. PosterX said something about other schools where 1% are in a frat/sorority and 99% are in a marching bad, theatre etcetc EC, as if it's one or the other. That's not true at all. </p>

<p>An eating club is just a place to go. It is as it always has been an option. Every eating club member joins ECs of their own interest regardless, which in turn invalidates the claim that the eating clubs divide up the students. How can they? They're one more way for students to meet other people. At Pton, you have your Residential College buddies, you have your Orchestra buddies, you have your lab work buddies, you have your community service work buddies ,you have your track/field buddies, and if you choose to join an eating club, you simply have eating club buddies. Simple as that.</p>

<p>(PosterX - just to let you know, I referred to what you said, but I'm not aiming this at you or anyone in particular.)</p>

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<p>fscottie, we weren't talking about what Princeton might do in the future. I believe everyone was addressing the situation as it stands right now.</p>

<p>The Princeton "residential college system" is nothing like Harvard's or Yale's. Harvard and Yale (to say nothing of Oxbridge) have nearly a century of tradition in that system - they are integral to the universities' function - whereas Princeton's dates from the 1980s and is nowhere near as extensive, well-resourced, or influential. Just because a school says it has a "residential college" doesn't mean it really has anything even approximating the same thing as the schools that have had it for nearly a century.</p>

<p>Also, I made no underestimation of the impact of small, private groups on the undergraduate populations of Harvard and Yale (or other schools that have them, like Berkeley and many others). Even if 30% of seniors became involved in a "society", that would be less than 10% of the total student population. And when you consider that the so-called "societies", "clubs," etc only meet a couple times a week for dinner or whatever, it works out to less than 1% of the average student's time. Princeton is a totally different ballgame.</p>

<p>MEA, you have a realistic outlook on the situation, but it's still important that people are aware of the differences. Then they can realistically visit for a weekend, compare Princeton's clubs with the social life at other schools they get into, and decide if the situation is right for them.</p>

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<p>How are Princeton's residential colleges not extensive? How are they not have good resources? How are they not influential? </p>

<p>Sounds like unfounded claims to me. Can you explain them?</p>

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<p>I think those questions are best answered by an extensive visit to each school, at which point the differences would become quite clear. </p>

<p>They simply aren't the center of campus life as they are at Harvard or Yale, just as you might imagine to be the case when comparing something from the 1920s/1930s and covering 100% of the student body, versus something thrown together and not covering all students in the 1980s.</p>

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<p>So I guess by disdaining elitist groups that favor the wealthy, I'm antisocial?
I too treasure students with multiple talents, rather than insular ones with few social skills. The problem begins when eating clubs encroach on academic and other extracurricular endeavors, which certainly happens quite frequently. I doubt that Harvard's student body is "less social" than Princetons. Unless of course you consider getting drunk being social. Tell me then Shrek (or anybody else for that matter), where should a student today go that values the humanities/econ deeply, along with other extracurricular pursuits? Certainly Caltech and MIT are intense, but their focus lies primarily in the sciences.~Confused</p>

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<p>About the eating clubs, yea, that's all I wanted to post. The eating clubs realistically are nothing more or less than that. I agree every college is different, but too often people attempt to paint them negatively when it's really a far better and fairer concept of H and Y's societies. I'm not sure how 'well not that many students join' is an argument. The reason not many students join is simply that they can't. They have to be tapped. In contrast, consider that perhaps the eating clubs are so popular because....they're popular. They're good, they're fun, they're a place to meet people without any of this 'male-only' or 'skull and bones' type outdated prejudices. If they weren't good, they would close,as some have. If they aren't popular because you have to bicker to get into them, they become non-bicker, as some have. They're options, and good ones at that.</p>

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<p>It is probably a "big deal" to prospective students because a lot of people turn down Princeton specifically because of the eating clubs. Or maybe because the people who transfer out of Princeton sometimes do so for the same reason. </p>

<p>Bottom line is, most people think that the clubs create a very different social environment than Harvard, Yale or other top schools. I don't think it's fair to say that one is "better" than the other, but there are legitimate differences. </p>

<p>Furthermore, as I've said before, to compare the Eating Clubs with "senior societies" or "finals clubs" is simply misguided, or perhaps an attempt to cover up one of the less-than-ideal aspects of Princeton's social life.</p>

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<p>Prefontaine - for a start, there are financial subsidies that make eating clubs accessible to peopel of all economic means. Secondly, if you treasure peopel with multiple talents, I ask you in turn how by joining an eating club, someone declares that they have no talents? I wager that everyone in an eating club or not in an eating club are equally capable and multi-talented. It doesn't make sense to say otherwise. If you don't join an eating club, it's fine. I'm probably not joining one either. In fact, it's early to consider it, since for the first two years and optionally all four, students are put into residential colleges ( again, posterX, how are they not central?).</p>

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<p>well, yale's system isn't even truly a four-year one, since freshmen live not in their residential college but on the old campus. i believe harvard's is the same, with freshmen living not in their houses but in the yard. i rather like princeton's two-year system, which unlike yale or harvard places students in their residential college right away, and then after their sophomore year allows them to choose from a variety of upperclass living options, including remaining in their residential college (now as an RA, later as an ordinary resident), moving to upperclass housing with friends from any and all other colleges (ideal), moving to an eating club or co-op, or moving off-campus (rare).</p>

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<p>PosterX - if people turn down P because of the eating clubs, that doesn't prove your point at all. It's easy to twist eating clubs into something dark and shady. But all that is said and believed by people who haven't actually been to one (Surprise surprise) or understood them.</p>

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<p>I'll reiterate Mea, that some princeton students indeed are multi-faceted. However, when a large portion of time is spent drinking obsessively and being "social" there is little time left for theory, aiding the community, winning games, solving theorems. That's my only qualm with the system, along with the fact that while the clubs do offer financial support the support is minimal at most. Furthermore, some bicker clubs seem to have a monotonic increase with acceptance as wealth also increases. What a shame.</p>

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<p>poster X: in response to this: "Furthermore, as I've said before, to compare the Eating Clubs with "senior societies" or "finals clubs" is simply misguided, or perhaps an attempt to cover up one of the less-than-ideal aspects of Princeton's social life.", I said this: "too often people attempt to paint them negatively when it's really a far better and fairer concept of H and Y's societies. I'm not sure how 'well not that many students join' is an argument. The reason not many students join is simply that they can't. They have to be tapped. In contrast, consider that perhaps the eating clubs are so popular because....they're popular. They're good, they're fun, they're a place to meet people without any of this 'male-only' or 'skull and bones' type outdated prejudices. If they weren't good, they would close,as some have. If they aren't popular because you have to bicker to get into them, they become non-bicker, as some have. They're options, and good ones at that." </p>

<p>in case you missed it. people are posting fast here.</p>

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<p>"I'll admit, the club system, and the elitist stereotype it fosters, did bother me a bit when I applied"</p>

<p>To put this myth a little into perspective:</p>

<p>The most selective of the bicker clubs presently have an acceptance ratio of 50% approximately. Cottage Club as one of the flagships of the old pride of the club system has consistently been easier to get into in terms of statistical probability (appr. 70-80%). The least selective (Campus club during its bicker experiment) had an acceptance ratio of 100%. The whole "elitism" issue with the clubs boils down to the probablity of a certain individual not getting into one of the 5 "bicker" clubs of his choice. For a particular (junior or senior) class the membership in those 5 selective clubs comprises no more than 25% at most. The amount of choice for a junior at P where to take his meals still vastly exceeds those at comparable colleges. And by tendancy it will increase (new colleges etc.) So let the market forces decide: unpopular clubs will go out of business - just as unpopular restaurants do. Period!</p>

<p>The selectivity, or "elitism" of HYPSM is much higher than any of these examples. It is ridiculous that some people make such a fuzz about it.</p>

<p>If any prospective student is grossly turned away by the existence of those private off-campus institutions at P, then he should simply chose some other college. Just because USN keeps ranking P on the top, doesn't mean there are no alternatives. As easy as that. :)</p>

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<p>I think many people misunderstand the concept of eating club. Either they hear fabricated "telephoned" stories, or they just created this own image in their mind. </p>

<p>Bottom line is, most people think that the clubs create a very different social environment than Harvard, Yale or other top schools.
Well, in some sense it does. Princeton's social life is compared to Stanfords and Penn's, while Harvard's bottoms out. Yale's frats/sororities have had a huge surge of interest. </p>

<p>Prefontaine - I have yet to hear an argument successively showing eating clubs as "elite" or "catering to the wealthy". No it does not make you anti social by not joining one, many people dont. But if one is completely turned away by a school because it has a social organization, that you may join BY CHOICE, that shows something about one's social attitude.</p>

<p>Playfair - I believe its around 30% bickers and arouind 20% are actually in a bicker club.</p>

<p>"Furthermore, some bicker clubs seem to have a monotonic increase with acceptance as wealth also increases"
Umm, and where did you hear that? Eating clubs offer financial aid and many students in bicker clubs are on financial aid. Even Ivy Club (known for "rich kids") isnt really "rich" and has students on financial aid.</p>

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<p>"However, when a large portion of time is spent drinking obsessively and being "social" there is little time left for theory, aiding the community, winning games, solving theorems." </p>

<p>Clear exaggeration. My EMT classes are going to take more out of my week than going to an eating club event ever will. Secondly, if you feel that an eating club would be more a distraction than relaxation, don't join one. It's really that simple. Thirdly, I can't help but also be mildly offended at the implication that Princeton students don't do anything except drink obsessively. The vast vast majority of students are extremely involved on campus.</p>

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<p>Eating clubs sponsor trips to other cities that require large sums of cash. Elitist, no? Harvard's social life is not quite the duldrums which you have created in your mind, mind you. I do indeed despise a system that overtly values drinking and socializing with others of your class. It's essentially a sick, twisted caste system that was eradicated a while back in India.</p>

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<p>Out of curiosity, what is your definition of elite? We acknowledge that many students join an eating club. If eating clubs are 'elite'......</p>

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<p>bottom line: princeton has the highest freshman retention rate, the highest four-year graduation rate, the second-highest six-year graduation rate, and the highest alumni giving rate (easily) of any national university. it also recently ranked #9 out of ALL colleges and universities for best quality of life, and #16 for happiest students.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/webex/higrad_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/webex/higrad_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/natudoc_hgrad_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/natudoc_hgrad_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>MEA, I already responded to your post so there's no reason to copy and paste it twice:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1176107&postcount=28%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1176107&postcount=28&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Playfair, good post. There are many alternatives.</p>