Importance of course rigor in applying to med school?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>I'm currently a rising college freshman. I know that it's important to have a high GPA when applying to med school, just as it was when applying to undergrad. However, course rigor was also considered very important... someone with a 3.7 and mostly Honors/AP classes had a better chance than someone with a 4.0 and all easy classes. I was wondering if it was the same when applying to med school. Would a person with a 4.0 who fulfilled all the minimum pre-med requiremements and majored in something really easy and therefore took all the easiest classes have an advantage over someone with a 3.3, 3.5, or 3.7 who majored in something harder and took harder classes?</p>

<p>At the moment, I'm wondering specifically about higher level math courses. Is it really necessary to take upper level math classes (above calc I, II, and basic statistics)? Would it be detrimental to my med school application if I choose not to take these classes? Does it make a difference that my AP Stats score is high enough for credit if I choose to accept it? I'm still waiting for my AP Calc BC scores. I don't feel comfortable applying to med school without taking any math classes in college, but as of now, I'm only planning to either take a basic stats course (since stats seems very useful to med school) or a life science calc course. I've always gotten good grades in my math classes in high school (not meaning to brag, but rather trying to further prove my point, I got the highest grade in my class in every math course I took in high school, while I can't say that about many of the other subjects that I am more interested in). I'm not against taking upper lvl math classes b/c I'm scared they'll be difficult... I'm just not that interested in taking more math classes than I have to and would rather take more interesting classes. </p>

<p>I'm not asking about the importance of course rigor b/c I want to take the easy way out in picking classes, lol. I definitely want to challenge myself, because not doing so would make me very poorly prepared for med school if I do get in, but at the same time, I want to have reasonably balanced and INTERESTING schedule and not overwork myself a lot more than I have to. By the way, I'm planning to major in biology, and there's a VERY little chance, if any, I'll change my mind on that.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance!!</p>

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<p>I believe that college GPA and MCAT scores are important. Who can evaluate rigor, who has aknowledge of various rigor levels at various UG’s. However, since it is important to get an awesome MCAT score, higher level Bio would definitely help. Intro Bio has nothing to do with MCAT. Talking about higher level Bio classes, none of them were walk in a park at my D’s state school. Again, if you want high GPA and MCAT score, you will work your b–t off, promise. Well, and my D. did not major in Biology.</p>

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<p>No you do not need upper division math. Calc 1 & Stats will work for nearly everywhere. (If I recall, only 1-2 med schools require Calc 2.)</p>

<p>But consider retaking Stats for the “easy” A or as a ‘breather’ to balance more difficult courses, such as Organic. Alternatively, take a a Research-based Stats course if it is in your major and fulfills a requirement. A course doesn’t necessarily have to be labeled 'math" to count as a math class for bcpm purposes.</p>

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<p>Med schools don’t care about rigor. This is why some don’t recommend majoring in engineering. They only care about your GPA, not what got you there. You must take the premed courses, and honestly, that is kinda tough. Most recommend taking at least one upper level math course, but it is not required. Miami makes a good point. Taking some upper level bio courses could help a lot with the MCAT, esp if they are taking during the same semester as your MCAT (will help refresh knowledge from before). Bluebayou makes a good point to. Taking research or behavioral science based stats would be excellent. And it should count towards your science GPA.</p>

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<p>I think my son would disagree about the rigor. He applied last cycle and it was discussed during his interviews, especially at Harvard, Michigan, Cornell, and UNC. But it was discussed at some of his other interviews, albeit more briefly.</p>

<p>He did take Calc 1, 2, 3 and def eq., required for his economics major. Also required for Harvard’s/MIT HST program. Also took Greek, Spanish, Latin, comp sci, physics for engineers, at his first undergrad. Needed upper Biochem, chem, micro, imuunology, virology, anatomy and other sciences for a biochem, micro and genetics degree at his second undergrad.</p>

<p>Did so 1) first undergrad did not have those specific science majors and 2) he was attending undergrad for the education, something he was very passionate about
more than the GPA or MCAT score. If he did well enough to gain an acceptance to med school then so be it
but he was not going to let the opportunity of a lifetime to learn from some of the best and brightest dictate which classes he should or should not take, based on the rigor or outcome of a class grade.</p>

<p>And it showed. He did not have an extremely high GPA. You simply can’t when you graduate with over 200 college units. He pushed his schedule every semester, every summer in addition to being a D1 athlete and performing research. It just didn’t matter to him. He knew he was getting a world class education, and he was determined to make the very best of it.</p>

<p>He also knew that was the type of student he was and he needed to find med school’s that would fit his learning style and personality. It worked, he was admitted to schools were he would thrive and be a definite asset to their campuses and community.</p>

<p>Some school’s probably weeded him out due to a lower GPA but his decent MCAT 35+ gave it some balance. He didn’t make any excuses for his GPA, it was what it was. He did meet some deans, some just asked what some of the classes were
calcus based-econ is hard to explain as is financial engineering. But a senior thesis on health care economics did raise some eyebrows.</p>

<p>The question wasn’t could he succeed, but did he want to succeed there and would he fit into their mission? Much more of an honest conversation rather than an interview.</p>

<p>So major in what you enjoy, take advantage of all your college experience offers, stretch and push yourself out of your comfort zone
truly reach. And you will grow and if the future holds a medical school path for you, then all your experiences will make you a better physician.</p>

<p>Son’s search for med school’s was just that, not so much an app process but rather finding one that truly would allow him to become an outstanding physician and leader.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>kat:</p>

<p>small nit, but ‘calc-based’ econ is pretty standard nowadays for econ majors/minors, particularly for Wall Street wannabes. Heck, Calc is even required for many standard undergrad biz majors, including those going into the ‘softer side’ of Biz, such as Marketing. </p>

<p>I would hope that it wouldn’t be difficult to explain (since it would have been expected). Or, are you suggesting that the med interviewers had no idea of same?</p>

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<p>D. did not have problem getting accepted and most discussed topic at interviews was her music minor, all classes were very easy and help her to be away from science classes. She had very high GPA, all A’s and decent MCAT, applied to 8 school and got accepted at 4 of them, withdrew from WL’ed, so we do not know end results. Math is just boring for her, she likes Bio, neuroscience and music. I liked to take classes that she enjoys, she never cared too much what others will think, just completed requirements with best efforts. Stats are definitely useful in Med. Research and easy A, while Calcs was not needed for her at all. All her upper Bio were very hard. She did not think that she lacked in rigor.</p>

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<p>but what would they think of someone of majors in something like communication, which is clearly an A friendly major?</p>

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<p>^ Is the communication major a little bit too “vocational”? If it is, the general wisdom I learned here is that it is a disadvantage.</p>

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<p>Actually at his undergrad, princeton where they graduate a few econ majors (2nd most popular major) there are 2 routes to pursue an econ major. One is non-calc based, ie.,requiring some calc, not the engineering based calculus while the other requiring calc through def eq is relatively less popular. Just a handful graduated with that amount of calculus. Also at some of the other institutions he attended a semester of math was required for econ majors but not calc1 through Def Eq. So for Wharton’s econ major they require multi variable for their major not courses through def eq. NCSU requires 1 semester and it is Calculus for life science majors, not calculus 1 for engineers. MIT requires 2 semesters for their econ major. Harvard requires Math 1b and Math 20, but you can place out, then requiring none. </p>

<p>Son did transfer in 2 math units from his AP, however econ advisor required him to take all through def eq., filled with math majors which again was very different from other institutions.</p>

<p>There is a pretty significant difference between a requirement for 1 semester of calculus for life science majors (which many med schools now require- vs. some that require NO calculus) and 4 semesters of calculus for engineers. HUGE rigor disparity.</p>

<p>So while yes, while one track for econ majors requires 1 semester of calc, son’s route required 4. </p>

<p>Some med school interviewers were not aware that much calc was required for an econ major since many of their respective undergrad experiences did not expose them to econ majors which did require that much calc. Also some of the courses within his major did require some explanation as did his certificate in Hellenic studies.</p>

<p>His degrees in biochem, micro and genetics did not require any such explanation. And those degrees did not require that much calculus either, the extra classes went to free electives.</p>

<p>Hope this helps for further clarification.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Wow, a lot of great responses. Thanks, everyone! =)</p>

<p>Really? Upper lvl bio classes help a lot, lot more than intro lvl bio classes for the MCAT? That’s a huge relief! I’m definitely going to take a lot of bio classes (a med school student I talked to specifically recommended microbiology and biochemistry as really, really important), b/c I’m really interested in bio, and since I plan to major in it, I don’t really have a choice, lol). </p>

<p>I don’t know if Emory offers a life-science based stats, but that sounds like a really good idea. I’ve been browsing through medical journals, and I can tell that a good understanding of stats is really important. So med schools wouldn’t look down on my app if I take a stats course of some kind, used an AP math credit for calc (assuming I got a 4 or 5), did not supplement with higher lvl courses (calc III and beyond), but instead took a lot of bio courses and courses in other subjects that I was more interested in?</p>

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<p>^^Professional schools differ on how they treat AP Calc. Some will accept the AP credit if it is on your college transcript. Others want to see one full year of college-level math taken at a college (or dual enrollment). To maximize your opportunities, you might consider taking Calc 1 and forgoing AP credit. Then take Stats, research-based or life-science-based or other. (Some science and social science majors require Calc and Stats, so check out your intended major’s website as to the course that they prefer.)</p>

<p>Totally offpoint, kat, but Princeton clearly states on their website that Calc is a prereq to entering the Econ undergraduate program. Sure, it maybe Calc Lite (also offered to life-science majors), but it is Calc all the same – which was my point. OTOH, I’m really surprised that med adcoms were unaware that Engineering requires lotsa math, typically 2+ years, which by definition is rigorous. And since some of those same adcoms also review applications for the PhD programs, which does require more rigorous calc
Unless one attends a LAC (and even some of those offer engineering), it is hard to attend college and avoid running into future engineers, even if it just down the hall in a dorm. :)</p>

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<p>@bluebayou,
"Others want to see one full year of college-level math taken at a college (or dual enrollment). "</p>

<p>Would you please give a few examples. Thanks.</p>

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<p>fair question, plum. Our instate public, UC Davis requires one year of college math, and will not accept AP credits. OTOH, a few other colleges that I randomly checked online will accept AP credit for math. But that is only a few colleges that I checked. Obviously, with a 100+ professional schools, each has a different requirements, which are a-changing. </p>

<p>Best to survey the programs that you are interested, particularly your instate public(s). But recognize that admissions requirements evolve over time. What may be required now may not be by the time you apply. Conversely, as miami has pointed out elsewhere on cc, one school that her daughter applied to increased its requirements, requiring the daughter to change her senior schedule to fulfill the requirements.</p>

<p>btw: msar is your best quick source of med requirements, but then you have to dig thru the individual colleges’ website to see if they will accept AP credit.</p>

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<p>

How come?</p>

<p>

You might keep in mind that the MCAT isn’t a knowledge-based exam (only 26 questions total–13 in bio and 13 in physics–are knowledge-based). Rather, the MCAT is testing critical thinking and critical reading and problem solving skills using passages from physics, chem, bio, and organic chem–much like the passages you see while browsing research journals. Upper level classes are extremely useful for the MCAT because they teach you how to think and solve problems like a scientist, which (in a short phrase) is what the MCAT tests. As for content, and having the science knowledge necessary to understand the concepts presented, you’ll just need intro courses. </p>

<p>That’s a kind of long way to say, yes, I agree with your conclusion that upper level classes are quite useful for MCAT prep, but that it’s probably not for the reason you’re assuming.</p>

<p>As for math credit, the state med school I go to only requires one semester of math, college algebra or higher. Duke requires 1 semester of calculus and recommends another. Northwestern doesn’t require math but recommends statistics. Mayo neither requires nor recommends any math course. As you can see, there’s no cut and dry answer to the math requirements question because med schools aren’t consistent with requirements (which isn’t really a problem, in my opinion). For what it’s worth, I came in with dual enrollment credit through calc II, and satisfied all requirements that way.</p>

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<p>@Bluebayou-
Hope to clear up the confusion-
son was an ECON major not an engineering major. So his taking 4 semesters of calc through def eq was unusual for some med school interviewers
not all med school interviewers sit on the admit com. Some are matched up to potential student based on their respective interests as stated in their ps. Each different school son interviewed at had a variety methods for handling the interviews. As was the level of discussion relating to his course load rigor. What Harvard found interesting was not what UNC found interestng, ie., breadth vs. depth, course load vs. course difficulty.</p>

<p>And yes, I did say in my previous post that a semester of calc was required for the econ major at p’ton, however, as it is at MIT and Harvard there are varying degrees of difficulty of various calc courses and their respective sequences. Son’s was not that of a typical econ student, rather that of an engineering student/physics/math major AND that’s what some interviewers required further explanation. Some schools had more than 1 p’ton econ major in their app cycle so it was clear there was a distinct difference. Further, at HMS one can only apply to HST with math through def eq(4 semesters), while New Pathways requires a 2 semester sequence.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>^ Thats not rare, I know plenty of premeds at my LAC that go far being calc II (including me). There has been plenty engineering etc. majors on CC and I never heard anyone say that there course rigor helped. In fact, I heard the opposite from them. His interviewer either wasnt experienced or was trying to make conversion. Either way, where did you come to the conclusion that it mattered much? I didnt reread your first post so I dont remember everything, but I dont see how you came to the conclusion that it gave him a boost in admission. Because he was asked about it?</p>

<p>Sent from my DROIDX using CC App</p>

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<p>amazing,
Actually D. thought that biochemistry was waste of time, she took it after MCAT, did not learn anything new. She said that Physiology and Genetics were the most important for MCAT while first Bio was not at all. However, at her UG, that first Bio was designed to be weed out killer that layed foundation to all other Bio classes. AP material was covered in first 2 weeks of this class. Basically, first Bio was almost unvoidable if you want to be prepared well for other Bio classes.<br>
However, all of these varies from UG to UG. So, talking to other pre-meds at your UG and possibly pre-med advisor is important.
Also, there is nothing wrong or right in taking all kind of Calc classes as long as you are either interested or your major requires them. It just happened that my D. has never been interest in math, although it has always been very easy class for her. She just completed minimum requirements (AP Calc credit and college Stats) while taking many classes in her area of interests with many of them being very challenging but facsinating at the same time.</p>

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<p>One thing that has been in the back of my mind regarding ‘rigor’ has to do with the Committee Letter (for those schools that offer them). In essence, does course rigor sway the Committee recommendation (‘walks on water’ vs. ‘needs floaties’ to cross)? </p>

<p>(Having no experience with Committee Letters, I have no idea.)</p>

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<p>D. had very positive experience with her Committee recommendation. She was told at interview with Committee person that she will get the highest positive LOR (they had several levels) that they send. I has never asked her what it was based on. D. had all A’s and I was under impression that everything at her UG, including various opportunites, awards, recognitions, Phi Betta Kappa, LOR’s
etc. was based on that fact and also very positive feedbacks for her job as SI for Chem. prof. and the same from Med. Research person in charge who also happened to be Dean of D’s college. D. has never mentioned any discussions about rigor, however, good number of top honors kids fell out of pre-med track after first Bio class, so I concluded that it was regorous with upper Bio classes being more challenging according to my D.</p>