Important lessons learned

This, again, is where some history courses would come in handy.

For some it builds character, and those “some” are the ones who manage to succeed without major loss. (Ten years is a significant loss.) But for most – when you’re talking about a wall that difficult to get around, meaning many will never manage it – it builds resentment, despondency, despair, bile, rage, mistrust. Especially if they’ve been told all along that the sky’s the limit and that such walls don’t exist – or, if they do, are surely climbable with enough pluck.

The young people in this country are poor now, and minority white. I don’t talk to many students who have a memory of a middle class, and in that sense I’m an ambassador of the past. When I tell them what was possible for a middle-class American child in the last century – what we just had around, had available to us, regardless of what our parents made or owned – they’re shocked and a little nauseous. They know they’ve been missing out, but it hasn’t occurred to them what might be possible. They’ve been taught to ask for not a hell of a lot.

When people say that being poor is scarring in this country, they aren’t joking. It is. I know too many young people who are exquisitely aware of what their parents have gone through trying to get them safely to adulthood, and of how their parents were defeated. They carry all this with them. It’s very different from my family’s story, which does involve people working, working, working, working, but also, unless ill somehow, succeeding.

When you get too many of these kids, coming from nothing and being sent to walk through brick walls, they stop trying. They just stop playing your game. The kids I see at the beginning of a semester are frequently angry by the time they sit down. They’re not excited about school and learning. They’re not excited at the thought of their futures. They see how their parents have been steamrolled and how they’re being robbed for a bachelor’s degree, and that they effectively have no choice but to let it happen. And they’re already exhausted from the amount of work and fear it’s taken just to get them to this point, the endless anxiety and competition with people who are supposed to be friends.

I see kids who are hostile by the time they get here. That’s a change. It’s one thing to see a kid get pissed off at you because they don’t like you as a teacher, but when they walk in that way, something else is happening. They used to be numb from anxiety, headed for breakdowns. Before that they were anxious but driven. Before that they were optimistic about their futures and looking forward to learning. Before that they were so into learning something – something! – about the wider world that they’d run away from home and pay for it themselves, even if it had no obvious use in the world, they just wanted to know things.

I can’t remember the last time I had a student like that. Like in this century. I still do get kids who are excited about the prospect of learning something, but it’s always subsumed deeply to “can I use this”, though of course they don’t know enough about the world yet to have any idea of what might actually be useful. Regardless, they’re extremely risk-averse and increasingly they don’t see the point.

If in effect you lie to these kids and tell them about their wonderful promising futures at the end of all this dread and anxiety and debt-mountain-building, so that after years of good-faith hard work and indebting their parents and denying themselves fun they get to the end of the sidewalk and for the majority of them it’s weeds and a brick wall and more gumption stories, this does not build character. This teaches them that the system is so rigged that they have to break it and start new. And the difference between now and, say, 20 years ago is that – apart from young people being poorer than they used to be – there are gazillions of them. It’s a big, big couple of generations – again poor, again majority minority – and in pretty short order they’ll be running the show at all levels. They’ll do it for a long time. So they’ll be in a position to break things and try to rebuild, which is why I think it’d be very nice if they had all those history courses and a sense of their own selves as future-shaping, and the ability to walk out of a state U and be taken seriously even if they’re not so worldbeating that they’ve got the whole Truman-Fulbright-GRFP-etc. charm bracelet.

Breaking stuff isn’t that easy, but you can do it without a solid education. Rebuilding well without history, though, I don’t fancy the odds.

Call it a report from state-U land. If your defense against that story is that here and there, some wildly exceptional kids do great and learn to pole vault over brick walls, then again, I have to refer you to those history courses you didn’t want. Or English courses. Le rouge et le noir comes to mind. And anything by Zola.

The thing is – and we go around and around, but there really isn’t any need – these are not difficult problems to solve. We know how to do it because we’ve done it before. It is about removing tax and regulatory advantages that have accrued to wealthy people and institutions over the last forty years. It really is as simple as that. Even if you roll the clock back to 1985, we were by far the most aggressively capitalist nation going, and we had a whole Manhattan full of rich people, whose parties I greatly enjoyed. It was hardly a Maoist landscape. But that’s all there is to it. I’ll let you know when I hear an argument against a stiff rollback and redistribution that can’t be exploded like Wile E. Coyote TNT.

It hasn’t escaped my attention, btw, that these middle-class educational benefits began evaporating at around the same time that it became as normal for girls to go to university in this country as it was for boys, a few years after campus protests became a big thing, and in a time when we saw the publication of a whole lot of books freaking out about multiculturalism and bell curves and the natural superiority of the western canon, which was about to be drowned in a demographic tide. That wonder-machine, the state university of the 1970s, was a wonder machine primarily for young white men. I don’t think that gets enough attention. But putting the money back there again will work just as well for everyone else as it did for all those Steves and Jims and Eddies way back then.

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You understand, of course, that for most people in this country, $150K represents around 3 years’ income. The international students at UK schools, unless they’ve got Commonwealth bursaries or the like, are rich kids.

My daughter did spend a lot of time looking at UK schools, but we can’t afford them at international rates. With need-based aid, my daughter’s in-state ed will cost about $60K, including food. It’s still a lot of money. She’s been saving since she was tiny: part of every birthday present that involved money got put away for college, part of allowances were saved, and she got her first paycheck at 14. I’ve been saving since she was gestational. Her dad may have to be taken to court for his share, but that’s his problem, except for lawyer fees, which will be my problem. With tax credits, the college savings accounts will hit $0 in about four years, which, with luck, will be enough.

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Once again: for service activities you need leisure, which is not a thing you have if you need to make money so that someday you can go to college, take care of sibs, etc.

I am very sorry for your situation. What I said was that her English friends are not rich kids, not by US standards. She has mostly English and EU friends - there are very few American undergraduates there.

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I was working in Commons as Thatcher was taking a sledgehammer to the social welfare system and turning out the lights on the GLC. A (tattered) advantage that still exists in the UK is a long history of frank socialism, rhetoric and all, and a living memory of what it was like to see an overt class system melted down at least partway. So I remember the fights about having tuition fees at all, rather than grants that just took care of everything, and then jacking them up US-style. I also remember at the time warning friends in academia in the UK that this wasn’t going to go anywhere good and that they needed to look at us as an object lesson in why not to do this. At the time, private elite tuitions ran around $25-30K, and universities everywhere in the US had just got started in shiny-building competitions. Good for the bond ratings, shiny buildings.

The misery is that unless some very different governments are elected in the UK, I think it’s going to take a while longer of going the wrong way before recognizing that this is no way of rescuing the country from Brexit. The cuts will go on as tax revenues drop, the unis will be forced to raise tuition, you know I think it’d be easier all around to grab Labour while Corbyn’s out and try to make something of it. :wink: Or just poach Nicola, she seems to know what she’s doing.

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My son’s experience at Oxford both in terms of cost and his network of friends is consistent with your daughter’s. Part of the cost advantage was that we were able to move a significant chunk of funding over to the UK when the pound was at 1.15-1.2 versus where it is today. His average all-in cost for the past four years has been about $50k. He graduates with a masters. As a full payer, that compares to five years at a comparable US school at say $70k per year for the same end result. $200k vs. $350k. Meaningful savings.

Is what you say about state Flagship U’s true of them all? You indicate that most of your students come from poorer families or the struggling middle class and that they are scratching to pay for their education. Is that widely true or just among your students? Here in MA lots of middle/upper middle class students attend our flagship state U which I’m told provides a very good education for a cost that seems reasonable compared to most options in this area (although $30k is high compared to most states). These students are generally successful and, if anything, our state U has a much stronger reputation now than it did 30 years ago and is attracting a much better student than it did back then.

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It was no easier “back in the day” (60’s? 70’s? Exactly what golden era of equality are you referencing) for a kid who was getting “an education” but had zero social capital. If it were, we’d be seeing those folks “running the country” in corporate, artistic and political roles and that’s not the case. You write about the mothers keeping things together- at the expense of her own health- which is heartbreaking, but do you honestly think it was easier being a single mom in the days before contraception, when pregnant unmarried women were shipped off to a “relative” and forced to give her baby up for adoption? I grew up in a very Catholic neighborhood and believe me, plenty of “could have been valedictorian and taking all AP” type classmates ended up missing senior year of HS because of an “unplanned trip” to stay with Aunt Bridget in Syracuse for a while. Did those young women get back on track afterwards? No. They went to secretarial school when they moved back home, sans baby. Fortunately secretarial school was cheap at the time, especially for a woman who had taken AP English and already knew how to type (it was required at my public HS- everyone took typing) so those students could zip through the program.

So the past wasn’t so glorious. The only true on-ramp for a poor or lower middle class kid back then was the military- and I knew plenty of guys with terrible lottery numbers, so you took your chances- drafted and sent to 'Nam? Hitchhike to Canada? Take your chances as a conscientious objector? If you made it through military service and didn’t come home in a box or addicted to heroin, you had a shot at resuming normal life.

So please don’t romanticize the last generation and how “easy” it was back then. Because it wasn’t easy then. I don’t have the data to compare whether it’s easier now-- but read every article extolling Joe Biden and how radical it is that he’s not a graduate of elite colleges-- and realize just how old the man is, and what that says about the difficulty WAY BACK THEN of breaking into “the major leagues”. I doubt it’s harder now- it’s always been hard.

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While I do share some of the same feelings as the OP regarding the state of inequality in our country, I agree with you regarding the danger of romanticizing the past. A past where my mother had to quit her job because she got married, where open discrimination against LBGTQ people was totally acceptable - among other things. Maybe things were better for middle class white men, but for many others things were worse.

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OP, your employer is part of what is causing the problem. Kids are risk averse because your college will not admit them if they try but fail a new endeavor. They are burned out from the college admissions rat race your college expected of them, even if not at the level of elite players. And they are interested in practical job oriented courses because college costs a lot of money and they want return on investment, which is also true for elite students, most of whom are now studying computer science and economics for the same reason.

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Talk to any 70 year old lawyer, doctor, or other professional who is not a white man for perspective on how many doors were closed to them.

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Yes. My mom never went to college although she was really bright because that is what the “boys” did (all 3 of her brothers did). Same for her sister who was the valedictorian, but went straight to secretarial school.

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Rewriting the past 50-200 years doesn’t make it true for those who lived in that time.
Take any date, assign a person or group of people who are poor without advantages, track their lives. You will see that few change their direction. Likewise, few families keep generational wealth going.

There was and will always be walls. There will always be the exception who go over them, around them invent a new way to circumlocute them.
The thing I find odd about these conversations is the lack of agency some feel in their lives. That they are throwing in the towel because their parents aren’t able to pay for the college they want to attend. At the same time, folks are willing to parade a tiny subset of those who have run the gauntlet and made impressive movement in their lives. And they hold them up to say what exactly?

My perspective is wide. I’ve experienced quite a bit of what’s listed above plus have witnessed absolute violence in front of my eyes. Yet, I didn’t sit down and blame others. I have three Ivy degrees, have owned multiple companies and am in a high income bracket. But my kid recently wrote a short story about my life which won an award. The teacher wrote, I was rooting for your parent. Fingers crossed just holding my breath hoping. Am I unique? Maybe. But I sat next to many other non-privileged kids in my Ivy classes. The two thing holding things together, agency for one’s life and hard work.
So when I read about some of these posts, I am angry also. That someone thinks the system needs to be torn sown because they don’t have the advantages they want.
Public universities in my state are excellent and one can go from there to anywhere. It’s not the college it’s the person. And there are zero jobs where you need to attend a specific school.

So the lesson I have learned seems to be very different from OP. Mine is, work hard, make the pie bigger, never make assumptions about a person’s background and ask questions to determine truth.

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Well said. Agency is crucial. OP has stated that her college does offer paths to solid middle class jobs, and for most people, that is the goal.

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In general, state flagship universities’ students’ parent SES tends to be skewed upward. State non-flagship universities that cater mainly to local commuters tend to have lower student parent SES profiles (or the students’ own SES level for non-traditional students). Of course, the parent SES levels at the state universities do vary by state, affected by both the relative wealth/poverty if the state and various state policies. @bennty can tell a story, but does not mention which state (flagship university), so people in other states may find many aspects of such to be inapplicable to what they see in their own states.

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And stay healthy.

Of course, that’s the area we all have the last control over. You can be running marathons today and diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor tomorrow. So it is ironic that the element which can take the most ambitious, hard-working, tenacious person off-track (professionally, financially, socially, etc.) is the one you really cannot control.

But otherwise I’m voting with Happytimes. We live in a consumer culture now, where there is a presupposition that more money equals more choices equals better outcomes. And in some areas that is no doubt correct. (I buy cheap cars. I always have. I am AMAZED at how fantastic my current cheap car is. It gives me pause that someone with limited resources has to drive the beater they bought third hand-- maybe one of my old cars which needed constant maintenance and cost a fortune to run). But education- at least college level education- is one area where more money doesn’t always equal better outcome. Not always. Sometimes.

The few boarding school families I know are in the “licking wounds” stage of the college admissions process right now. The very talented college counseling staff worked tirelessly to lower expectations (except for the true top 5% type students) and keep the families focused on “This college is a hidden gem” messages.

But the parents of the kid who they sent off to “old school tie” prep school didn’t want to pay for boarding school so their kid- who they thought was destined for Princeton or Amherst- could end up at Muhlenberg or Trinity or Denison or Lawrence (fine institutions, don’t get me wrong) where they’d be answering “how do you spell that” or “where exactly is that” for the next four years.

For every person who thinks prep school and the advantages it brings is the golden ticket-- I introduce you to the stressed out, treadmill running kids who are trudging off to college knowing they’ve already disappointed mater and pater, not to mention grandpapa whose “cred” as Princeton orange blazer, class of '61 or whatnot, couldn’t move the needle. Grandmama couldn’t attend Princeton of course- since they didn’t accept women back then.

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Lol. Great post. Knowing your strengths and weaknesses is critical for success in any field including college acceptance.
Bad health will cut down the most promising people. Many very low income folks have a chronic disease.
Still laughing about the Princeton grandpa, I can picture him.

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The irony about the Princeton Grandpa-- kid wanted Lawrence all along (two club teams for the sports the kid loves- not good enough to play at a higher level; an inter-disciplinary major in an obscure subject the kid loves-- it’s a fantastic fit and kudos to the college advisor who guided him there so expertly…). But again- the subset of the elites that the OP is referring to, who have coddled and massaged and planned and stage managed every element of their kids lives- aren’t doing it AND paying the big bucks, so the kid can “launch” from a college nobody at their club has heard of. The parents had been overheard saying “Ok, he didn’t have the grades for Princeton, we get it. But Vassar? Middlebury? fancy-shmancy prep school couldn’t get him into Middlebury?”

Which is hilarious to anyone who has been paying attention for the last ten years and has seen the kids who go to Middlebury!!!

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Have a friendly acquaintance at a tippy top B/S. Her job as CC is made immeasurably harder (according to her) by parents - many (if not most) have unrealistic expectations about where their kids might end up. Virtually all expect Ivy - and if not that, another highly ranked university or LAC. Most BS people on CC seem to have more realistic expectations and value it for what it is - an outstanding high school experience. I’m not sure how many parents share that attitude vs the other kind (I mainly know the kind who are hyper focused on what schools their kids can get into).

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I believe their was an article a couple years ago about counseling staff at these elite prep schools coming under fire for this exact thing - trying to lower parental expectations.

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