<p>
[quote]
The mystical x-factor of "fit" is what gives colleges all the leeway in the world.
[/quote]
Yes. And this leeway has been used to discriminate against Jews, African Americans, communists, and do lots of other icky things. Yes, they're private universities, but that doesn't mean all their choices should be praised to the heavens or left without comment.</p>
<p>Fundamentally, my line of thought in these things always comes back to a childish but, I think, fundamentally right essay I wrote many years ago. Martin Luther King, Jr. longed for a society in which we would be judged not by the color of our skin but by the content of our character. I realize there are many plausible stories which would justify fudging his dream a little bit this way or that, but I think it would be better to start living it.</p>
<p>See, you do have a personal qualm with this. it's anything but 'fact for fact's sake'. I mean there's nothing wrong with that, just admit it. I can admit it when I'm trying to lead people (successfully or unsuccessfully) to think one way or another. Life is not one giant debate tournament, y'know.</p>
<p>
[quote]
whites and asians have been spoiled rotten in every other aspect of life
[/quote]
oh, and thanks for speaking for a few hundred million people. it is precisely this kind of categorical nonsense that bothers me about AA.</p>
<p>Edit: but your last post was nicer, so I'll agree with you that I do get fired about things like living up to the ideals we lie to children about. If that's a bad thing, I'll wear the dunce cap if you make me one.</p>
<p>hey. you notice the poor whites and asians complaining? are the people making all this noise about AA those who've actually suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune? Hark, alas, no. It's the middle-upper class looking for someone to blame. Too general, maybe, but for the most part I see it so.</p>
<p>Why? I personally believe those who've lived through circumstances compelling enough to deserve special consideration receive it no matter their race.</p>
<p>you have a faulty assumption -- that the only people who express dissatisfaction with racially oriented policies are people who have been personally hurt by affirmative action. why do you wrongly assume everyone is so petty and mercenary? we can discuss that more separately if you want.</p>
<p>even if you were right, though, the validity of an argument shouldn't depend on whose mouth it's coming out of. you do an injustice to the strength of the case for AA when you switch to this ad hominem silliness.</p>
<p>so hmm i've been up for 48 hours, and as much as i'd like to stay up i'm going to attempt some self-discipline and go to bed. snarfle debating about silly things always makes it hard to sleep. hopefully deprivation will do its good work on my eyelids.</p>
<p>wow...nice discussion...although a little advice for you people....
I think we should stop worrying about what should be...maybe we should just live with 'what is'...nothings going to really change you know...
I mean u talk abt reservation..then maybe u might have heard about the recent straight 50% reservation in India in all universities (even the Indian Institutes of technology...from next year)...here though the IIT's have a simple process...they teach the minorities for an year...and after that make them sit for a test...if these people pass the transition test they get admitted if not their asses are kicked out...and to tell u an interesting fact that out of the (presentyl) 27% reserved candidates only 10% clear the test...( that too many barely) and are eligible for IIT's so basically those minorities destroyed some 100 seats which could have gone to many other deserving candidates(but thats a whole new topic)...my point is that in India atleast now only those deserving will get through to the premiere institute...coz the IIT proffs say...that whatever your past be for 1 year we will teach you with IIT facilities and the best in the country will teach you your subjects so it is expected that you should atleast pass the courses....well so when so many people fail to make the cut it shows just how many were undeserving....now why cant you have something like that at a US university...
although maybe that might not be possible because the US admission procedure(which i love btw) is very very holistic and not just one test...</p>
<p>Ben G i need to ask one thing...are there no AA at Caltech..just curious because i did not apply there....</p>
<p>Also this is a general feeling that we have in India...Although i mean MIT and caltech are like the only 2 dream colleges for us Indians..we ( as in my friends both at school and CC and I myself) feel that MIT is trying to be more harvardish and year by year paying less emphasis (compared to caltech) on hardcore academics...just a little difference...but IMO presently in R&D caltech is ruling....</p>
<p>But still...just for the record...for me MIT still rules...</p>
<p>personally, as an admitted mit student who has already decided to go to mit, i don't think ben golub is trying to persuade anyone (either to go to caltech rather than mit or believe in what he is saying). he's just searching for truth, and i respect that. i seek truth also. his courage to speak about such a controversial subject in face of ad hominem attacks is admirable, and all this time he has remained in good humor. in fact, i'm quite disappointed with current mit students' reactions and responses. i thought they were immature, failing to properly discuss this subject like ben golub has. shouldn't mit be a place where students can talk about whatever without being derided? sure, this is a sensitive subject, but everyone should be mature about it.</p>
<p>[edit] seeking truth is important. perhaps this is why caltech's work is more theoretical while mit's work is more pragmatic? i've been told that caltech's work focuses on proofs a lot (in terms of math, of course).</p>
<p>hey orbis, I'm curious. How long have you been hanging around here? Do an archives search and see if this "controversial subject" hasn't been "properly discussed" maybe about a million times with... (what results?) No, seriously. Check. </p>
<p>pebbles, don't hit the prefrosh. it's not his fault. i just found one who arrived at our prefrosh weekend early and gave him a cookie to go post something nice about me. you have truth on your side, i have cookies. we all got to get by somehow, no? ask george bush.</p>
<p>vampiro -- no AA at Caltech. we admit the class judged ex ante most likely to succeed academically in their coursework and research. that is, we work very hard to be surprised if someone we didn't take ends up being a more successful scientist or engineer than someone we did take. (it's bound to happen due to plain and simple mistakes, but the goal is to avoid the situation completely.)</p>
<p>I just don't see what everyone is arguing about, the quote very explicitly states what it states.
Why not accept it? no one is arguing that diversity is unimportant so don't be defensive, i see what the quote says and I agree with what MIT is doing.</p>
<p>well, you didn't let me finish. I had to go declare my major. What I was ABOUT to say is...</p>
<p>...but all that aside what we need is TRUTH. Goddamn I'm so fed up with all the lies and the hate and the admissions DOUBLESPEAK and man it just gets me so fired up with righteous anger why can't we all just RISE UP and fight the man for the common good! The man be all sympathizing with black people and always trying to hush us up like we don't got a RIGHT to our 160th circle jerk thread if THAT'S WHAT MAKES US FEEL GOOD. We god-fearin' middle-upper class white folk really just got NO outlet for all of our creative fire, so what are we gonna do?! We're gonna STAND UP! We're gonna FIND OUR VOICE! That's just how it's gotta be done in the name of truth and all that is holy in our lifetime and the next and most of all we're gonna REPRESENT. We're not lettin' 'em get away with it again, this college business is OUR turf and ARE WE JUST GONNA LET PEOPLE WALTZ ON IN AND TROD ALL OVER OUR LAND? No! Hell no! Say it with me now!</p>
<p>you see, some of you think that i care about university policy or meritocracy, but i couldn't care less about that stuff. i just start these threads so i can see pebbles street-perform without paying the airfare* to boston.</p>
<p>;-)</p>
<p>--
* can you believe david baltimore (outgoing president), out of his own pocket, covered the difference between the cost of going to boston to get our cannon thingy back and the amount of money we had? i don't know many nobel laureates who are that cool.</p>
<p>This is quite an interesting discussion - certainly more intellectual and civil (overall) than the last 14,634 times the topic was broached on CC.</p>
<p>I'd jump in here but it's more fun to watch kcastelle eloquently say pretty much everything I would have said.</p>