In response to the many debates on ugrad quality

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
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<p>Okay, I've been reading like at least 300 different posts, (i guess cuz i was bored), about how berkeley may be better than some school, but others are better than berkeley, and all kinds of stuff like that, and there is one thing is just don't understand. When you guys argue about whether Berkeley competes with HYP and things of that nature, such grandiose measures are said like how your "success in life" will come from what school you go to ugrad for. I don't know, but it really seems to me that in the real world, what seems to matter most is where you went for your grad/doctorate education. Ugrad is important no doubt, but it really not what is going to shape your life's success. This makes sense as well considering the fact that in ugraduate you really arent specializing. It is basically an advanced version of hs. Hell, it isn't until your junior and senior years in most colleges that you even start to specialize. And for general sort of classes, it doesnt make sense that it is that CRUCIAL where you go. I mean, what do you hear about when you think about a famous professor, it is where he got his phD, not where he did his undergraduate. I know that ugrad affects where you go for graduate too, but I mean why argue about petty comparisons between two top schools. Any way you look at it Berkeley, as a whole, is a top school. And the ivy's are top schools. And probably the ivy's are even better than Berkeley, but I have a hard time believing that it is THAT SIGNIFICANT of a difference in quality of education that the same person who gets into both Berkeley or ivy, would end up that differently in selection of graduate schools. </p>

<p>Is undergraduate really worth all the fuss? I guess that's what I'm really wondering. It seems to me that if your going to a good school, then from that point it really becomes your own motivation and drive that leads you to success MUCH more than the differences in schools. I mean I understand this IS college confidential, but I am just trying to put things in perspective. Many times I think when getting into heated debates we seem to lose perpective, I know this happens to me a lot, and I'm just trying to get it back.</p>

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<p>" what seems to matter most is where you went for your grad/doctorate education."</p>

<p>If a student chooses to go into industry after undergrad, then undergrad will be the most important. Usually the last place you graduate from will have the most weight.</p>

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I don't know, but it really seems to me that in the real world, what seems to matter most is where you went for your grad/doctorate education

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<p>One problem is that the majority of undergrads will never go to graduate school. </p>

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such grandiose measures are said like how your "success in life" will come from what school you go to ugrad for

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<p>Nobody is saying that ugrad will determine everything that will ever happens in your life. </p>

<p>But every little thing helps in life. Just like working out every day doesn't mean that I won't keel over and die from a heart attack tomorrow. But exercise helps in reducing the likelihood of a heart attack. Hence, if you can get an extra boost, even if it is only a small boost, why wouldn't you want it?</p>

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<p>You don't mention that Cal's harsh grading policies and lack of support and advising significantly reduce its undergrads' chances of being admitted to the top graduate and professional programs.</p>

<p>The two largest undergrad majors at Cal are MCB and poli sci. Most of the students in those majors want to enter medical and law school, respectively. Yet if you look at the admissions stats into the top three schools of each category, you'll realize how pathetic they are. 0.6% into HMS and 5-6% into YLS for the past five years just doesn't cut it, especially when "grade-inflated" schools like Princeton are getting their undergrads into those programs at about 3-4X Berkeley's rates while having lower average GPAs and comparable or lower admissions test scores.</p>

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<p>The school shouldn't be the fuss at all. The student should be. Your "success in life" will come almost exclusively from yourself (and what circumstances you were born into), not from anywhere else.</p>

<p>Student, your argument is completely invalid. If I could get every Princeton student to apply to a top medical or law school so their acceptance percentage dropped by an order of magnitude, would you believe their program was now on-par with Berkeley's? I'm sure there are relevant statistics out there, so use them.</p>

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<p>Wrong. Harvard and the Ivy/Ivy-equivalents will give you a leg up because networking and extracurricular activities will be so abundant there. Plus since its easier to make good grades, you actually have time to fill your resume with more than grades.</p>

<p>Not only are Berkeley grades harder for the most part, they also require much more work. If you want to major in something difficult like Chem E and whatnot, it will suck up almost all your time.</p>

<p>Berkeley is simply not really a school worth going to for undergrad unless you are cash-strapped. </p>

<p>Small edges make all the difference. If you have the exact same scores as someone else but that other person won the genetic lottery and has a harvard legacy family, chances are he/she will go to harvard and you will go to Berkeley.</p>

<p>Once in college, one person will have huge networking opportunities and an easier time at getting a good gpa. This will allow more time to study for LSAT/MCAT's and more time to pad your resume with more activities.</p>

<p>One will go to Berkeley, major in what he/she loves, realizes that the major is gpa/deflating and takes too much time. Then they'll take a 5th year to graduate just to pump up their gpa. Yet, even with the same LSAT score as the guy from harvard, and about the same gpa, the harvard guy will still get in to his law school of choice because graduate schools value harvard grads more than Berkeley grads (using the basic gpa-adjusting formula most schools use), and has more extracurriculars because Harvard is an easier school.</p>

<p>Later on in life, when applying for jobs, a harvard undergraduate will still get heavy accolades because your employer has 3 harvard undergrads on the payroll and they are all great workers. When the Berkeley grad applies, the employer will be more skeptical. They have a cum laude poli sci from grad that does an OK job, and a 3.4 asian studies major that they had to lay off because he was too incompotent. Even though you majored in something much harder, chemistry, you only have cum laude because your major is grade deflated. Your employer passes on you and takes the average student from Harvard again.</p>

<p>Simple Message: Don't go to Berkeley.</p>

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<p>...IF you get into Harvard.</p>

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<p>You can replace harvard with any other ivy and the top lacs.</p>

<p>They don't have a huge crappy pool of students like Berkeley does; students who end up marginalising the value of a diploma from their school.</p>

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<p>But your main argument is ridiculous: Berkeley is a subpar school, because it's too hard for the undergraduate student? And you're saying Berkeley has a huge pool of mediocre students? The same Berkeley that is ranked top public school in the world, in the Top 10 overall? I know it's all slanted for the graduate programs, but the undergraduate still has to carry some weight; US News ranks Berkeley as within the top three for both Undergraduate Business and Undergraduate Engineering. I know Harvard students who were rejected from Berkeley FFS.</p>

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<p>i'm so sick of bashing berkeley on this board. i'm coming into cal stoked, and really excited, and with the idea that at berkeley, YOU are in charge of your own education. Now making money is great, and those harvard or w/e grad might have an easier time doing great things. But personally, I think the better people are those who forge their own destinies, and not let name brands and grade inflation get them to where they are.
on the issue of the "huge crappy pool of students", berkeley is a public institution, it's mission isn't to recruit ONLY the best students, but to educated a wide variety of students. any where you go you'll find idiots, but there's a reason why the adcom picked someone for whatever reason. Sometimes people come in and don't do well, so what thats life, there's plenty of ef ups at harvard, hell, look @ the president, a drunk @ yale. The point is, I think this berkeley bashing is just an excuse for not being able, or not wanting to, take your education into your own hands. I'm not saying there's not flaws, but stop complaining and do something to change the undergrad life (if your @ cal) and if not, shut up. </p>

<p>Also,,....I am quite proud to be amongst that "huge crappy pool of students", so Go Bears!.</p>

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<p>punkdudeus </p>

<p>!</p>

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<p>Shiboing Boing speaks the truth.</p>

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<p>It really is worthless to argue IN FAVOR of Berkeley on this board. College Confidential clearly is hindered by an enormous Ivy bias; it encourages the harmful Ivy worldview.</p>

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<p>What's up with the trolls on this board?</p>

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It really is worthless to argue IN FAVOR of Berkeley on this board. College Confidential clearly is hindered by an enormous Ivy bias; it encourages the harmful Ivy worldview.

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<p>If that's so, then why are MIT, CalTech, and Stanford so popular? </p>

<p>Clearly it's not an Ivy worldview, it's a US NEWS "America's Best Colleges" worldview.</p>

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If that's so, then why are MIT, CalTech, and Stanford so popular?</p>

<p>Clearly it's not an Ivy worldview, it's a US NEWS "America's Best Colleges" worldview.

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Or how about a private>public worldview?</p>

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<p>Why are people always out to discredit our education? </p>

<p>Effin HYPS obsessed CC man...</p>

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<p>Shiboing boing your logic is absolutely ABSURD. You really are a pathetic debater.</p>

<ol>
<li>You say that Berkeley is not a school going to unless cashstrapped. I'm sorry but Berkeley has some of the best faculty in the world, according to THES it it ranked 6th in the world, 4th in the US. And yes, I DO know it dropped from last year's 2nd status, BUT THAT STILL DOESNT MEAN IT AINT GOOD. And sorry, but even US new's rank 20 is not at ALL a bad ranking. It is still one of the top colleges in the nation with a lot of oppurtunities for students wanting to seek them.
You people who diss Berkeley are not helping anyone. You aren't even telling people the important things. For example, yes, Berkeley's acceptance rate to Med School is only 60 something percent, BUT THAT IS BECAUSE the data is based upon everyone who applied, not after screening certain people. If you want the real facts, here it is:
"approximately 87% of senior applicants who completed
the prerequisite courses with a grade of B or higher, obtained an
overall GPA of at least a 3.4, and obtained a total MCAT score of 30 or
higher were admitted to a medical school from Berkeley"</li>
</ol>

<p>Ya, that seems like a much larger number now doesn't it. Berkeley's stats often look worse because it is a public institution, which means that yes, some not so smart people fall through the cracks and it lowers its overall standing. This is different from private schools that only accept a very select group (although berkeley is no walk in the park to get into either). BUT Berkeley is different from other schools in that it has the best faculty, and some of the best research, giving you AMPLE oppurtunity to succeed if you want to. That is to say that students have plenty of oppurtunity to VERY WELL from Berkeley. Berkeley has a range, if you are the bottom of Berkeley and don't take advantage of it, then yes everything you said is true. However, if you are self motivated and hardworking, and are really take advantage of all that Berkeley has to offer then you will do just as well as students from the HYPS schools. I agree that the general public at Berkeley is not as intelligent as the general public at Harvard, and thus if you are the type of student who needs a strong peer group around you to nurture you and help you succeed then Berkeley may not be the best place for you to succeed. But in the real world, you will need to motivate yourself, and if you can do that early on in ugraduate, it is an invaluable skill and Berkeley would be the perfect place for you to succeed. I know many people going to GREAT schools like Harvard, MIT, and Stanford from Berkeley. </p>

<p>And yes, you are probably right. It is hard to make good grades at Berkeley, but the way you extracted all that BULL CRAP was just crazy and idiotic. Just because Berkeley is a tough school, you extrapolate three hundred negative things from it and claim THAT TO BE FACT! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND! thats like me saying that I didnt' get an A on this test, so now I'm going to start slacking off, and I won't wanna work as hard, and I'll get sad, and I'll need to go to a psychiatrist to deal with my newfound depression, and then I won't have as much time for my studies, and then I'll getting worse and worse, and I'll get sadder and sadder, and in the end I'll end up a bum on the street. </p>

<p>That is exactly what you did with your crazy bullcrap logic. </p>

<p>When I tell people I'm going to Berkeley, they step back and are impressed. I feel proud just like many others on this board to go there. When I tlel people I'm going to Berkeley on THIS BOARD, I just feel disgusted with the people....</p>

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<p>wow pulkit, you're absolutely right. i dun understand why so many ppl bash such a great university. so what if its public, so what if its not an ivy league, still excellent, and i think the fact that ppl keep comparing to the ivy leagues, even if it is for negative purposes, shows that it is a good school. i mean you don't see ppl even comparing like ucsb to harvard ever do you. nope. nicely said Pulkit, i agree wholeheartedly</p>

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<p>
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Or how about a private>public worldview?

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</p>

<p>
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If that's so, then why are MIT, CalTech, and Stanford so popular? </p>

<p>Clearly it's not an Ivy worldview, it's a US NEWS "America's Best Colleges" worldview.

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<p>I disagree with this. If there is any worldview, it's a 'good school' worldview. After all, many people, including myself, believe (and USNews confirms) that Berkeley is a great place to go for graduate school. Yet the Berkeley graduate programs are public programs. Nobody say that you shouldn't get a PhD from Berkeley just because Berkeley is public. That a reflection of the simple fact that Berkeley has a better graduate school than undergrad school.</p>

<p>However, I also disagree with Shiboing boing and agree with pulkit that the Berkeley undergrad program, while not the best, is still better than the vast majority of programs out there, and in particular, is clearly better than any of the public undergrad programs outside of the states of Michigan and Virginia (and is arguably better than them too). In particular, for all of its problems, I'd still prefer to be an undergrad at Berkeley than at any of the lower UC's, and especially at any of the CalStates. Berkeley has its problems sure, which is why it has match-up problems with HYPSMC, but it has fewer problems than those other public schools do.</p>