In-state vs. Out-of-state costs and applicant qualifications

Colleges and Universities A-Z College of William and Mary
1

<p>We started discussing the relative fairness of in-state and out-of-state costs and admission practices on another thread and were asked to take it outside :D. Anyway, this thread is intended to provide a spot for that discussion. </p>

<p>On the previous thread <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-william-mary/1579486-possible-me-get-accepted.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-william-mary/1579486-possible-me-get-accepted.html&lt;/a>, proudfather referred to today's Washington Post article:
[quote]
Frazzled -- according to today's Washington Post, the state colleges in Virginia are supposed to accept 75 percent from instate, not 65 percent. Read here: Loudoun Supervisors push to limit out-of-state students in Virginia universities - The Washington Post

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I don't think the article makes that point. It states that
[quote]
The Loudoun County Board of Supervisors approved a legislative agenda this fall that proposes a 25 percent cap on the portion of out-of-state students in Virginia’s institutes of higher education. They started lobbying state lawmakers this week..... Past efforts have failed, pitted against the enduring financial struggles of the state’s colleges and universities.

[/quote]
The article also goes on to say:
[quote]
Virginia law says universities that have exceeded 25 percent nonresident enrollment should not increase their share of out-of-state students further. Four schools have surpassed that threshold: the College of William and Mary, the University of Virginia, Virginia Tech and James Madison University.

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I don't read this to mean that the 4 schools in question should not have admitted more than 25 percent of out-of-state students, which W&M and UVA have done for at least 15 years; I read it to mean that they should not exceed their current ratio. If there's already a law forbidding more than 25 percent, why have the Loudoun County legislators proposed that very thing?</p>

2

<p>Another quote from the previous thread, from Squiddy:

There may be enough in-state applicants whose parents are willing to pay whatever the difference would be if OOS tuition no longer carried the burden. But I can’t believe that all those students would be academically superior to the OOS students who, as individuals, now pay more than 3 times as much in tuition for the same college experience.</p>

<p>Sure, a W&M education would be a steal for an in-state student whose parents can afford another $8,000 a year. But when out-of-state students are limited to 25 percent, or 20 percent, as was proposed in 2011 - for how long will it be the same William and Mary? Because out-of-state students raise the student profile, given that it’s a harder admit for them. The common data set doesn’t split out SAT results by in- versus out-of-state. But when my oldest daughter was admitted in 2001, the student profile specified that out-of-state students posted an average SAT score 100 points higher than in-state students. </p>

<p>If VA legislators want to change long-established ratios, they should be willing to raise the amount of funding they provide their top public universities, so that more in-state students can afford to attend them. I don’t really see that happening.</p>

3

<p>In the UVa forum GolfFather brought up the article in the WashPo that mentioned several schools inc W&M and UVa that appeared to be admitting more OOS students. Dean J, the UVa admissions representative, responded with the following (note, if quotes are used the links are lost):</p>

<p>The ratio is part of the charter agreement that involved UVa, Tech, W&M, and VCU. SCHEV makes sure we are all compliant. 2-3 state legislators introduce a bill about the ratios every year (often excepting a few of the state schools). In my recollection, the bills always get sent to and fail in appropriations.</p>

<p>You can search for the bills and track the new ones on Richmond Sunlight. You can also see how bills get revised throughout the session on that site. The session begins January 9th and some bills have already been filed.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.richmondsunlight.com%5B/url%5D”>http://www.richmondsunlight.com</a></p>

<p>More about the charter agreement: <a href=“Search | The University of Virginia”>Search | The University of Virginia;

<p>Bills related to education that have been filed: <a href=“http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bills/tags/education/[/url]”>http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bills/tags/education/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The entire thread can be found here, posts #16 and #18, although the majority of the thread pertains to other things (increase in EA, instate vs OOS, etc):
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/1577732-14-309-early-applications.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-virginia/1577732-14-309-early-applications.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

4

<p>Maybe we settle this and W&M goes private</p>

<p>[Schools</a> & Colleges » Academics | Boston University](<a href=“http://www.bu.edu/academics/schools-colleges/]Schools”>Schools & Colleges » Academics | Boston University)</p>

<p>[Will</a> Virginia?s top colleges go private? | Flat Hat News](<a href=“http://flathatnews.com/2013/09/20/will-virginias-top-colleges-go-private/]Will”>Will Virginia’s top colleges go private? | Flat Hat News)</p>

<p>( Revelry has said he is exploring ALL possibilities to preserve the W&M quality of education due to reduced state funding</p>

5

<p>I’m a big Reveley fan - I love that autocorrect makes him “Revelry!” :)</p>

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<p>I don’t believe there is enough money to go private even if Reveley and the BOV want to. Yes, the state doesn’t give much of the operating expenses, but they still officially own every building on campus and I can’t imagine them handing it over unless the college bought them all from the state.</p>

7

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<p>Not long. To raise the tuition far above the VA cohort schools (UVA, etc), would shift the most-qualified students into other schools - UVA, JMU, VT would all be far less expensive. Those forced out of those schools in-turn would likely opt for less-expensive, and less-competitive options, like ODU, Christopher Newport, etc. </p>

<p>In particular, it would shift the most qualified/most competitive students away from W&M to other schools, both in-state and OOS. With the aid offered by many private schools, those schools - even OOS - would become more affordable to those top-tier students as compared to this new tuition regime. </p>

<p>So, with the lack of highly qualified students (both IS and OOS) to fill the admissions class, admissions standards would have to slip. As the school became less selective, it would become even less attractive - and so a vicious circle sets in - yet more high-achievers divert elsewhere, and so those standards would slip further, diverting more high-achievers, etc. </p>

<p>So, we quickly arrive at a situation where we have the most expensive 2nd tier school in America, unable to fill its admissions class due to its high cost. Certainly in the short-term, some high-income earners with children with less-than-stellar credentials would pay the price, to get that prestigious name on the diploma - but the prestige of that name would dissipate quickly. </p>

<p>Soon, more dominoes fall - less-than-full admissions classes means we find the school offering courses in hair-dressing and automotive repair. Alumni giving and research grants disappear. The Wren chapel is leased out for a Starbucks. The Jamestown dorms are sold and converted to time-shares. Soon after, a developer turns the Sunken Garden into a mini-golf course. </p>

<p>And , W&M becomes the oldest university in America to go bankrupt, if only out of sheer despair.</p>

<p>Raising tuition by $8-10K, and eliminating OOS students could be called “A Modest Proposal: How to Bankrupt a College in Two Easy Steps”</p>

8

<p>Keep an eye on UVa’s current direction of differential tuition. They have been using this for some time with McIntire School of Commerce. When the school announces “We have only raised tuition 3.8% for instate and 4.8% for OOS for the coming year” this does not tell the entire story. They indeed get the big headline the BOV wants, which says tuition is being kept as low as possible. What the students and families get is death by fees. Yes, all colleges charge their students fees. UVa is using a different model of differential tuition. The Nursing and Engineering students pay a lab fee differential, the Engineering students pay a differential of $2k in addition to a 3.9% base differential (this is being phased in over four years. McIntire is a two year program and has a $5k/year differential. A proposal of a differential fee to third and fourth year students of $2k to offset smaller classes and better advising was in the plan before the BOV but not implemented. With the new 5-year plan getting the green light from the BOV in November that included restructuring advising I would not be surprised to see this $2k differential back on the table in April next year.</p>

<p>I am in no way disparaging the way that UVa charges it’s students. I have a third year currently there. What I am saying is they are employing a different model, differential tuition. It is no longer enough to look at tuition, room, and board to get an idea of the COA (give or take for travel and personal expenses). If you do this looking at say W&M’s tuition, room, and board, you are not looking apples to apples. For a school such as UVa this model may make more sense. A cafeteria plan if you will. My only beef (if you want to call it that) is continuing to list base tuition instead of a range, from the first year with no additional fees to the forth year with the highest fees possible. When it comes to a discussion such as squiddy is bringing up, which is fair to compare increases in tuitions, you can no longer look at the base tuition that UVa is listing and think that’s a realistic price you’re going to pay. I’m not trying to insult other parents, but I don’t know how many are going to dig deep enough to realize that the tuition listed is really a meaningless number. Maybe I’m shortchanging UVa and the differential tuition model and the various COA’s will be made very clear when one looks for this information so they can make easy comparisons with other schools.</p>

<p>I guess my ultimate point is I don’t think W&M is out of line financially when you start to add up these fees and extrapolate the direction UVa is going and where they could be in four years. The instate student entering W&M class of 2018 has a pretty clear idea of what their costs will be. The instate student entering UVa class of 2018 has absolutely no idea what they will be paying by their forth year. I think it’s hard to say W&M is pricing themselves out.</p>

9

<p>Blueiguana- Don’t know if you will know this but I am curious. The VA pre-paid tuition plan pays tuition and MANDATORY fees. I was thrilled when we got our W&M bill and it was indeed just room, board and orientation- the tuition and fees were covered by the plan. Do you know if with UVA pricing theirs this way if the tuition program covers the fees? Or are they considered non mandatory since you don’t have to be in the engineering school (or others with fees)?</p>

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<p>tjmom - I’m sorry, I don’t have any information on that, but it could indeed be a very big issue for many people who thought they had all but books and personal expenses paid only to find they are thousands short as the use of differential tuition (fees) becomes more prevalent. As it has been in place with McIntire for some years, I’m sure there is a clear policy that UVa FinAid could easily share with you. I just don’t have that answer.</p>

11

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<p>blueiguana,</p>

<p>That is a very good point.
Speaking for myself, I haven’t really focused on U-Va’s (or any other school’s) fee structure.
Thanks for bringing it up.</p>

12

<p>Excellent posts #7 and 8, Squiddy and blueiguana. If only all prospective UVA parents could read blueiguana’s, and all VA state representatives could read Squiddy’s.

Yes - great insight.</p>

13

<p>Obviously, some hyperbole for effect, but I do think such a move would, at minimum, destroy the unique character of W&M. And those that would tinker with these institutions in this way either don’t understand how important a role W&M in the health of our state, or simply don’t care, putting their own personal or political gain ahead of what’s best for everyone else.</p>

<p>And just to be clear, it’s no longer a personal issue for me - I have no more kids on the way for whom W&M might play a part in their lives.</p>

<p>I reference my point made somewhere along the line, perhaps in the original thread. Public institutions like W&M, UVA, VT, etc, all contribute to <em>everyone’s</em> quality of life. Employers want to move here for our quality of life, and our educated workforce - this brings more jobs into the state, which is good for everyone. </p>

<p>And those OOS/Intl students not only contribute greatly to the educational experiences at the schools (and of course, financially as well - not only in schools fees, but in the money they spend while here), but many of them opt to stay in VA and begin their careers here. Importing the best-and-brightest in the country, and the world, educating them in the best way we know how, and then having them live here? Once again, that improves everyone’s lives in the state.</p>

<p>What’s best for the school is simultaneously what’s best for the state, and everyone in it. Mention “state school” in most states, and you’ll get an eye roll, maybe some sympathetic words along the lines of “Hey, at least it’s affordable” or “Well, at least s/he got in somewhere.”</p>

<p>We’re very fortunate to have such strong schools here - W&M, UVA, and VT are the envy of pretty much every other state - why mess that up?</p>

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<p>TJMom- UVA only charges room and dining (aka room & board); the VA Prepaid plan picks up the rest. We have a 1st year daughter there, and she has cousins in the E- school and comm school who find the same. The contract is for “mandatory fees”, and since they are mandatory for the engineering or commerce programs the state covers them. Note: as soon as you know where your child is going next year, notify VCSP. I was waiting for the tuition bill to come and should have told them well before it did, apparently.
(Hi Blue! :slight_smile: )</p>

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<p>Hi 89wahoo! So good to ‘see’ you! Great information to know. Hope your DD is doing well. :)</p>

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<p>89 Wahoo - Thanks for the info. That is exactly what I was curious about. My youngest is already at W&M- we did notify the tuition plan but I don’t think it was until June or so, but we had no problem with the bill getting paid by them.</p>

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<p>As far as the Mason School of Business for undergrads at William and Mary the Virginia prepaid program does not pick up the cost for the supplement to major or minor in business which is $1,500/$750 per semester beginning in the Fall of 2014. This is from the website:</p>

<p>Does Virginia’s Prepaid Education Program cover the special fees?</p>

<p>Virginia Prepaid Education Program (VPEP) contract states that it covers only the lowest undergraduate cost of tuition at the institution. Since VPEP’s contract states: “if there are additional charges for a specific course of study, such as nursing or engineering, or for more than a full-time course load, these additional costs are not covered by VPEP,” Mason’s business school fees would not be covered by VPEP. However, as mentioned above, all students are eligible for need-based aid and scholarships.</p>