In These Times: Practical vs. Follow Your Heart

<p>Dear CCers,</p>

<p>I am wondering if any other college applicants and their families are debating anything like this, in these tough economic times:</p>

<p>engineering vs. humanities.</p>

<p>Your general thoughts are welcomed, but here are our specifics, if you care to comment on them: </p>

<p>Daughter (applicant) is definitely a bwrk. She is happy doing many many things, which makes choosing a career, a major, a college, not so easy. (I don't expect her to have all the answers. She will likely learn and make adjustments as she goes along.)</p>

<p>With the help of cc'ers, she has a good list of colleges. She actually veered more toward the "life of the mind" type than I would have anticipated a couple years ago, but she has quite a varied list.
A couple of the schools are very techy. My husband feels strongly that if she gets in and can afford it, she should go to one of these for engineering, or to our state school for engineering. She is interested in engineering but has also been considering the humanities and law. My husband is opposed to funding anything impractical and wants her to first and foremost have skills and job prospects when she graduates from college. He thinks the tech schools--with a techy major-- are the only practical option.</p>

<p>By the time kids applying to colleges now graduate, this recession will most probably just be a memory. Cycles will always happen. It is a good wake up call to live more conservatively during good times but it would be sad if the effect was to push kids into "secure" jobs they have no passion for.</p>

<p>There have been several threads where kids talk about wild swings in their plans--many would-be investment bankers talking med school for example! I feel like these kids are getting no guidance.</p>

<p>I hardly think law is impractical. You can make that argument about a PhD in French literature, but law? That's a good way to earn a living.</p>

<p>My older daughter would have loved to do ballet and major in gender study. She is double majoring in Math and Econ, minor in dance and gender study. I am not going to fund a college degree that wouldn't enable her to support herself, that was before the economic down turn. I see a college education as an investment, not a nice to have. At the same time, if my kid is not a math/science person I wouldn't necessarily push them toward that direction, or if they have absolutely no interest in medicine then they shouldn't be doctors.</p>

<p>I can certainly understand your husband's desire to ensure that your D have gainful employment after college. Every parent wants their kid to be "successful" by whatever standards they measure that. However- the standards for success and happiness for your daughter are ultimately her own choice. She will have to live by her own standards. </p>

<p>It sounds like your D is going through the "who am I " stage in terms of academic interests. Not uncommon at all- in fact, I'd say very normal. She is not begging for engineering, as if it were her life's call. She needs to find her life's call- and going through college is part of that process. (Especially the first two years of college).</p>

<p>With all due respect to your H, I think it is unwise for him to drive a stake in the ground at this point about engineering or other "practical" majors. It's just one more potential control issue with which to deal at a time when parental control issues, letting go, etc. are already paramount. I would much rather see a statement like- I will pay for 4 years of college- no more. If, D, you are too indecisive, well then you will need to pay for any extra years that result because of your indecision, or mistakes. </p>

<p>Engineering majors usually have to declare going in, because of the rigorous requirements- but it would not be impossible for her to transfer into an engineering program later, if she and you were able to deal with the extended years in school. </p>

<p>Have faith that your D will figure out what her major will be and that a good part of her decision will include a realistic appraisal of job prospects. This will most likely happen within the first two years of college, if she is given the freedom to explore a variety of options- humanities, strict science, etc. Perhaps you could convince your H and D to ensure that whatever school she attends, there are plenty of options in both "practical" and "less seemingly practical" courses of study. </p>

<p>Take care and good luck</p>

<p>The last thing I'd advise my undecided child would be to choose a techy pigeon-hole course of study over broad exploratory learning. I'd rather s/he be happy with $40,000 a year income than miserable with $80,000.</p>

<p>I think you study what you love and you will make the best and the most of an education. I have known history majors who went to med school and special education teachers who've become corporate svp's.</p>

<p>If h is an engineer or an accountant, however, that might explain his lean towards practical. Very concrete thinking.</p>

<p>I marvel sometimes at those who believe that "engineer" is somehow bullet-proof when it comes to jobs. Has your husband never heard of the engineering/tech jobs being outsourced? A friend of ours is an engineer for Ford, another for Graumann - great job security, isn't it? Engineers get laid off, too.</p>

<p>One thing you may want to remind your husband - the vast majority of jobs that our kids will have the opportunity to pursue don't even exist today. The key to the jobs of the future is flexibility, both in preparation and in outlook. A humanities education can often be key to being able to turn on a dime, and to learn new things constantly.</p>

<p>Your H should take a look at the thread on whether adults are working in a field directly related to their college majors.
Lots of stories there of successful adults who have bounced around due to the curve balls life threw them.
I know of more than one lawyer who decided after getting their degree and passing the bar that they did not want to practice law. One of them is now a HS history teacher. There are lots of students out there who start out in engineering and discover quickly it is not for them.</p>

<p>Really good point Chevda. DS1 who is a grad student at MIT lived in a world in college where everyone thought engineering jobs would make them wealthy due to high starting salaries. He was shocked when we showed him a chart with engineering salaries going out 20 years. There is unbelievably low income growth compared to most careers. Start at $60K, top out at $100K. Certainly decent money, but not at all the riches DS and friends imagined.</p>

<p>Thanks, all.</p>

<p>Yes, my husband is in a tech field. In times of economic downturn, his field is always hit hard. We have always been very frugal to get through times of layoffs.
My husband is an immigrant who had it very tough growing up.
He wants our daughter to be able to have a good career coming out of 4-yr college, not to have to rely on grad school, in case there is no funding, and not to be left with an impractical undergrad degree. I think it's all fear. Me saying, "she'll find her way" just seems to make things worse, as if I'm leaving her future to chance without helping her make sound choices. My husband sees his smart daughter who could do anything but doesn't have a clear direction and it very much rankles him.<br>
(btw,he doesn't care if she's rich, just solvent. Engineering isn't a get-rich-quick plan at all, just, in his opinion, the most practical of the things she is interested in.)</p>

<p>ANy suggestions how I help him, and her?</p>

<p>Trust me -- as a female P.E. -- if your daughter is not completely sold on the idea of being an engineer, she will be very unhappy at a tech school. The engineering curriculum is extremely challenging and does not leave a whole lot of room in the schedule for "exploring" humanities and other liberal arts subjects. It sounds like your daughter has many different interests; is she willing to give them up (or at least relegate them to a very small part of her life) in order to immerse herself in math and science?</p>

<p>At tech-oriented schools, females are still a small minority. She will have to prove every day that she can "compete with the guys," because there is still a strong bias against women in the male-dominated engineering world. (I will be the first to admit that the situation is much better today than it used to be, but there is still that macho mentality out there.)</p>

<p>And as for an engineering degree automatically improving your daughter's job prospects: My engineering firm has seen its billings fall by nearly 60% in 2008 (compared to 2007) and most of our larger competitors have laid off dozens of engineers in the past six months. Chedva is absolutely correct; engineering jobs are getting hard to come by too.</p>

<p>pipmom, thank you for your suggestions. They are in line with my thinking of exploring options but there is a dilemma in that my husband does not like the idea of exploring humanities options. He sees that as a luxury for the rich who can afford an extra year if need be (from needing extra time due to exploring) and so on. Risk averse and practical-minded.</p>

<p>worried-mom (so at least i am not the only one :) )
She likes engineering. She can hold her own with the guys. She is confident and persistent. But she likes a lot of other things too. I'm sure if she liked another techy field with safer employment prospects, my husband would have her aim for that. He wants concrete skills, mainly.</p>

<p>Thank you for your perspective of the field, and Chedva too. I guess not much is safe these days.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Really good point Chevda. DS1 who is a grad student at MIT lived in a world in college where everyone thought engineering jobs would make them wealthy due to high starting salaries. He was shocked when we showed him a chart with engineering salaries going out 20 years. There is unbelievably low income growth compared to most careers. Start at $60K, top out at $100K. Certainly decent money, but not at all the riches DS and friends imagined.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think that information is correct, the $100K part, but it depends on the industry. Also, you don't stay being a low rung engineer all 20 years unless you want to. For example, my husband's college roomate is senior executive an at top telecom company in Europe. I'm sure he does not bring in just $100K. I don't know that many engineers that top out at $100K. That is very low, perhaps it must be salary for the midwest or south. Certainly not in CA. Didn't oldfort write that her secretary make $150K in NY?</p>

<p>But I agree that students should study what they want to study and not just engineering. I'm watching my niece/nephew generation(all around late 20s-early 30s) and they certainly did not stick to what their intended majors in college or professional school. One did a MD/Law degree but now is no longer working in this field. She started her own business using her inheritance money.</p>

<p>My father was an engineer. He started high, but only enjoyed steady increase of 5% because he never made it to management. None of his kids chose engineering as a profession because of high investment (hard work) with very little return. I am advising my older daugther to do math and econ because those two majors could allow her to decide what she wants to do after college. She could teach, go into finance, be a CEO, marketing, and could go into any industry. My daughter has a very creative side to her, she loves fashion and travel/hospitality. With a liberal education she could use math or econ to work in hotels, fashion, investment banks, consumer business. </p>

<p>I strongly discouraged her from getting a degree in a trade school - business school, engineering... - because I wanted her to have options when she graduated. Yes, she could also make a very good executive assistant making 150,000 (but I think she probably could do better than that someday).</p>

<p>Maybe a way to approach this might be to focus on the finances for a bit, rather than the actual major. How much of her education will your daughter fund?- either in terms of work or loans? One could argue that at least that much could go towards the "exploration" courses, if she so chooses. Seems reasonable and might appeal as a tactic to your practical minded H.</p>

<p>One thing I would like to add is that many business outside of Engineering firms like to hire engineering graduates because they are good problem solvers, good project managers, very analytical and very smart. Financial firms I have worked at have hired them into IT, research, finance, even sales and trading.</p>

<p>Another thought- point out to your H that since you and he have done a great job of raising your D, with solid practical values and a frugal mindset, that it is unlikely that she will go off the deep end into some major that is wildly impractical. So- have some faith in her ultimate ability to decide well, because you have raised her well. </p>

<p>Another avenue- is your D applying for scholarships? If so, this may relieve the pressure of seeing the college costs as a hard line investment in pure practicality. </p>

<p>In these tough economic times, combined with all the normal insecurities we all have about our kids going off to college, it's natural to worry about the future. But there are no "guaranteed" majors that promise even a decent living after college (except maybe mortuary science- funeral director). No one can predict the future value of a degree- the ups and downs of "hot" majors are too volatile.</p>

<p>The problem with engineering is that even the kids who are 100% sure that it is their calling have very little understanding of what engineering actually is. That is one of the reasons so many change their mind during freshman year. The problem with tech schools, is that there is not many "plan B" options there.</p>

<p>My feeling is that unless one is completely sold on a specific major (and has a good idea what it takes), it is much better to choose a solid school that offers good education in many areas of study, and allows changing majors along the way.</p>

<p>BTW, my own two college grads stuck with the majors they originally thought of pursuing, but going to schools that had distribution requirements (and thus forced them to take classes in variety of subjects), greatly contributed to the excellent education they both got.</p>