In These Times: Practical vs. Follow Your Heart

Parents Forum
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<p>Thanks blossom. She has schools. A couple of yours she would love to go to but they are reaches probably for anyone. The dilemma is, when all acceptances are in, to go with "undecided with law school in mind " (humanities leaning at non-tech sorts of schools)
or engineering at more tech oriented schools or engineering at universities.</p>

<p>I don't think my husband has illusions about sure-fire means to employment. I think he just means to promote the possibility of economic security as best he can, and that his opinions are very much grounded in reality, at least his reality. Ymmv. </p>

<p>I probably am over thinking. I hope I find that I had nothing to worry about. I wondered if other cc'ers were more worried these days about the practicality of their kids' educations.</p>

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<p>Lots of people here have said lots of good things, but I just want to add that my S, the enviro canvasser (and that's a chancy way to make money these days--good thing he firmly believes in the cause!) mentioned to me just last night, just talking about canvassing "you wouldn't believe how many out of work engineers I have met lately." I then told him about this thread, and he said--any job makes enough money, if you are willing to live within your means. His canvassing friends enjoy their jobs, live frugally, and are, on the whole, pretty happy people, including his big sis, who, if she wanted to, could certainly go to grad school and make big money in law, gov, etc (she's got the undergrad record for it) but chooses not to, for now.</p>

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<p>Madeline'sMom, I do worry about my kids' thinking when they chat about college and what they want to do. This past week, we visited one of my son's top choices and met with the chair of the chemistry department. Toward the end of the meeting, I asked him what do kids do with their degree when they graduate. He said that one third go to medical school -- no surprise. Another third, he said, go to grad school. The other third, he said, do all sorts of stuff. He has produced kids who work in all sorts of industries. Some go into law as patent attorneys. Mind you, my son loves chemistry, but this year, he really got into economics and may try to combine the two in some way. Maybe law. Maybe business. Three years ago, he wanted to be a doctor. No more. </p>

<p>Your daughter probably will change her mind a thousand times before she settles on something she loves. Perhaps a professor will inspire her to work in the math/science field or another might encourage her to be a writer. My son, the kid who hated to write five years ago, now loves to write. He's even talked about doing something with that writing skill. </p>

<p>(BTW, my youngest son hopes to go to a college with a great marching band!)</p>

<p>As parents, all we can do is listen and encourage. They do find their way.</p>

<p>After all, we did.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Even my daughter, who is undecided still, is very excited by many aspects of engineering, and in many ways it suits her.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe your H will compromise and let her study some humanities while pursuing an engineering degree? For some time there has been talk of extending the 4 year programs to 5 so people can study more non-tech studies.</p>

<p>I happen to think that part of the reason that relatively few females go into engineering is because they are more likely to be bwrk types and several options are open to them. I'd encourage the tech concentration now, at a state school (or non-tech school) and ask H if he'd support a slower schedule with more humanities.</p>

<p>As for her creative side, there are design engineers who use their creativity often.</p>

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<p>I am reading this thread with great interest because my college sophomore son recently told us he plans to major in engineering. (At his school students do not declare their major until their sophomore year). At his liberal-arts-oriented college, the 4-year engineering degree is a B.A., not a B.S., which I guess is okay if you are using it only as a springboard to medical/law school but if you think you might actually want to be an engineer, apparently you need to stay for a 5th year to get what they call a B.E. degree which is ABET-accredited (or whatever that is called). His interest is in biomedical engineering.</p>

<p>A few people in earlier posts mentioned concerns about outsourcing. I did an Internet search and read that the U.S. has about 70,000 undergrad engineering majors a year compared to 600,000 in China and 350,000 in India. If this is true, and if we are moving more and more to a single global economy, won't this hurt U.S. engineers in terms of job/salary prospects?</p>

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<p>This is a very difficult & meaningful dilemma. Ideally we want our work to be driven by our passions. Few of us as adolescents knew much about either, what we would do & what we were passionate about. Neither did our parents. Being in college is one way we try to answer these questions. We learn about ourselves not only from taking classes and declaring majors, but also from being away from home, beginning to be responsible for ourselves, & meeting new challenges. When applying & deciding where to go to college, it can help to take a wider perspective, then decide what's important.</p>

<p>For someone who might be interested in engineering, some colleges without engineering departments have joint programs, in which the student receives 2 degrees, one from the original college & an engineering degree from another institution. Much of the early curricula for engineering students is advanced math & science. For someone uncertain about a major & wants to explore various disciplines, math-science courses could meet either pre-requisites for engineering or distribution requirements for a non-science major.</p>

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<p>No one can predict the economic or employment future, and no one can predict financial security in any field, with any certainty. It used to be that everyone wanted to be a rich doctor---ha ha, with managed care eating up salaries. Then, there was the flurry of IB wannabes. That field has pretty much gone belly up. If one looks at the changes in industry over the last century, it indicate how hard it is to predict the next "boom" field.</p>

<p>The only guarantees are in health care and government, and likely defense, at the moment. Maybe education still, with an aging teacher population. The service sector in general, is pretty secure. The rest is all a crapshoot, which is why we are fully supportive of pursuing passion, and why we support our kid studying music performance. He may or may not be rich, but hopefully he will be happy, which is certainly more important that studying something that you dislike, in preparation for a field that is of little interest (fortunately, sounds like the OP's D is interested in engineering!).</p>

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<p>So much has been said here that is excellent advice, and I admit to not having read every post so forgive me if I overlap.</p>

<p>First -- many tech jobs have been outsourced. Sad, but true. I have friends who were high earning computer programmers. One even created an entire network for the government of Botswana. He hasn't been able to find steady employment in quite a few years and earns relatively little free lancing.</p>

<p>My H is in an "impractical" field. He has an MFA in photographer, and photography is his passion. He has always supported himself (and partially us, I say partially because I have a career as well) by shooting weddings. When digital photography came in we were very lucky that he also has a tech leaning and was easily able to master all aspects of computer photography. In fact, he says a photographer is now a graphic designer.</p>

<p>Owning and running his own business has had its ups and downs. Downside: No paid vacation days, no paid health insurance. Upside: No one could ever lay him off and his income depends on just how hard he's willing to hustle for jobs.</p>

<p>Right now it is certainly a down time for his business but he's creative and is finding other ways to use his skills.</p>

<p>His income has been very consistent.</p>

<p>The other plus was that his hours are so flexible that we never had to hire nannies or pay for full-time childcare, only the nursery school I would have wanted to send them anyway.</p>

<p>I teach college full-time, also not that time consuming, but his year I suffered a series of accidents and arthritis that left my hip in bad condition. His flexible hours allowed him to drive me on my very grueling commute so I lost no income, and he didn't either.</p>

<p>So, he's an art person; I'm a lit person. Not "practical", right?</p>

<p>We're have a stable income for the entire length of our marriage, I have excellent benefits, and we raised our own children -- something very important to me.</p>

<p>My point? There are many ways to skin a cat. I think economic stability and the creation of a family takes ingenuity for all these days, no matter what the major.</p>

<p>My daughter is graduating from Barnard as an American Studies major but she is headed to law after a gap year. American Studies gave her amazing opportunities.</p>

<p>My son went to college with a totally different idea but he is a theater major, something he did not envision. He is at a very elite and academically rigorous LAC, and he found that he could not excel up to his own standards unless he pursued his passion.</p>

<p>I support his choice. Two things will happen. He will get the confidence to apply the skills learned in the theater major to another career (most probable outcome) or he will discover that he has the skills and passion to pursue a life in the entertainment industry which doesn't necessary mean one of the glam jobs. There are many, many support positions too.</p>

<p>I think college is an investment in the individual, not the career. Most people change careers several times in these fast changing times. The nimble, secure, confident individual is more able to meet these demands.</p>

<p>A special word to the OP: Tech training plus law is an amazing combination. Patent lawyers are in great demand. Since many lawyers to have a humanities background your daughter would be very competitive (and maybe even happy) with this combination.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Maybe your H will compromise and let her study some humanities while pursuing an engineering degree? For some time there has been talk of extending the 4 year programs to 5 so people can study more non-tech studies.

[/quote]

Engineering majors do take some humanities courses - they don't take just the engineering classes. It's generally required. The reason they can sometimes still graduate in 4 years is because they sometimes take more courses and must work harder than in some other majors to get it all done. OTOH, it's not unusual for an engineering major to extend into the fifth year.</p>

<p>
[quote]
As for her creative side, there are design engineers who use their creativity often.

[/quote]

I'd say most engineers use creativity routinely in their work. There are many ways to solve problems and to design solutions. It's up to the engineers to be creative in finding these solutions and designs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
many tech jobs have been outsourced

[/quote]

It's true that some jobs have been outsourced but lots of predictions and anecdotal evidence indicates that we're producing far fewer engineers than needed. This is one of the reasons for the availability of jobs and high starting salaries - they're not handing the money out for no reason.</p>

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<p>Your D might be interested in some of the 3-2 programs offered by various schools such as Emory (3/2 engineering program with Georgia Tech. (Ba/Bs + MS))
Liberal arts colleges offering 3/2 engineering options:
Juniata, Elon, Holy Cross, Berea, Marietta, Pepperdine, Occidential, Ithaca, Dickinson, Wells, Oberlin, Washington & Lee , U of Rochester (Ten 3-2 programs BA/Masters ),
York engineering/business, Willamette University<br>
There are more, many LACs with engineering options with Columbia, USC</p>

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<p>following any path that's more "practical" at the expense of following my heart has never led to happiness, at least for me.</p>

<p>maybe a less expensive school that offers her majors (and that she loves)? i'm not sure....</p>

<p>just my 2 cents.</p>

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<p>Not all engineering jobs are outsourced. President Obama is proposing a massive program of public works and infrastructure rehabilitation to stimulate the economy. This will increase the demand for civil engineers. It is very difficult to outsource civil engineers -- if you're building a bridge or a new water treatment plant, you need to work at or near the site, not 12,000 miles away. It takes years for projects to be planned and designed, and so a civil engineer entering school now should be well-positioned in 4 or 5 years if Obama's program is implemented. Furthermore, a lot of civil engineering jobs are in the public sector, with stable incomes and good benefits. In California public sector engineers with several years of seniority make $100k plus bennies.</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>Don't be silly. Only sin companies (alcohol, cigarette, etc...) do well in a recession.<br>
Attorney</a> alums are fearful for the future - The Daily Princetonian</p>

<p>I read the exact piece on SF chronicle a while back. Then I googled and found it here on dailyprincetonian. DP must have lifted quite a few things from the original article on SF law firm.</p>

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<p>Thank you to all who have posted!</p>

<p>Your musings, perspectives, and info are invaluable. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and knowledge. </p>

<p>(NutOnABike, first post? Interesting insight. Thank you.)</p>

<p>P.S.--
I love the true-life stories, too. I'll bet they are helpful to many other people as well.</p>

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<p>The Chicago Tribune had a short article this week on the jobs that go unfilled in this economy. They are generally tech-related, with some post-college training required (X-ray technician was one cited, along with similar jobs in other industries.) </p>

<p>For a student like the OP's daughter, a rewarding career could be the result of the right exposure during college, but training from the years after. Her undergraduate degree could be in any number of fields. All of this leads me to believe that studying what you love, and being open to opportunities is a path to a successful and balanced life.</p>

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<p>Your husband's objection to an LAC education may be cultural, as well as practical. My husband is also a foreigner and an engineering professor, and he considers LACs to be a waste of time and a luxury for the wealthy. His attitude is a product of the way engineering is perceived in other countries -- it is considered to be a very prestigious profession, on par with medicine, and superior to law or business. In many parts of the world the brightest students study engineering. </p>

<p>I think there is almost a bias in the opposite direction towards the humanities in the U.S. But I have seen plenty of bright students explore their humanities interests for four years and graduate with no particular skills, never having found their "intellectual passion." (I'm not convinced this passion is even necessary -- I think there are plenty of people who would be perfectly happy working in a variety of careers.) But it is very discouraging to see these kids struggle to find employment after earning their expensive undergrad humanities degrees.</p>

<p>From what you have described, your daughter seems open to engineering, so why not encourage her to give it a try? The first year of most engineering programs consists of physics, math, chem, humanities, and maybe a class or two in the major. So it does not narrow her options if she decides to change majors. Engineering students are always required to take humanities courses, usually at least one a semester, sometimes many more. Look at the 4-year schedule of classes at the schools she is considering.</p>

<p>Engineering students with strong GPA's have no trouble entering the top law, medicine, or business schools. Many come in with that as their plan.</p>

<p>You should also be aware that there is a major push to recruit female engineering students and your daughter may be eligible for college or outside scholarships by virtue of her gender. Usually strong stats in math and science are required, but often no particular experience in engineering is expected.</p>

<p>If your daughter strongly preferred the humanities, or had a real aversion to engineering, she should definitely not be pushed into it. But she sounds undecided and talented in many areas, so engineering does make some sense. It's an incredibly broad field, and she should spend lots of time checking out the web pages describing research and student engineering groups at the various schools, as well as department web pages for different fields. Some questions to consider are how much she enjoys group work -- a very important part of engineering -- and if it would bother her to be one of only a few girls in her department. </p>

<p>Engineering can be a very exciting field for a strong student. Undergraduates at the university here are recruited for highly paid summer internships all over the country, and there are so many other opportunities. My advice would be to focus strongly on the quality and ranking of the engineering departments you are looking at, as well as the overall quality of the university. Many top engineering schools are found in large universities, where your daughter could easily switch to a humanities major (though not vice-versa), so it is not necessary to commit to a tech school.</p>

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<p>Would this apply to Pre-med students? Most of them just choose what subject they like best as to get the highest GPA they can. Many of them have a somewhat reliable back up.</p>

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<p>Since GPA is so important for med school, I think it's best for students to pick a major that will lead to a high GPA. Any major is fine, as long as they fulfill pre-med requirements. Engineering is a risky path for a pre-med student, because it may be much harder to earn a strong GPA. But I have seen students go this route.</p>

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<p>I suggest you let her find her own direction. My dad was in the same camp too (he's a professor in engineering and did pretty well) but I put a quick end to that question by failing high school physics. Now I'm doing econ with a minor in law and preparing to head to law school. My mom's like: "is there a market for corporate lawyers?" I'm like "yeah, how many companies get sued every day?" And then there's that joke->"Lawyers are immune from outsourcing because nobody's going to invent a robot to do nothing." Also: see sakky's theory on lawyers self-generating demand.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Engineering is a risky path for a pre-med student, because it may be much harder to earn a strong GPA.

[/quote]

I agree. The engineering GPAs, certainly for Computer Science, at some colleges tend to be at least a half point lower than many other majors due to grading on the curve and a proclivity for profs to grade harshly - especially in the early 'weeder' courses. I don't think there are that many engineering students who plan to go on to medical or law school afterwards although obviously some end up deciding to eventually.</p>