<p>lkf, your strategy is reasonable if you are extremely flexible about where you go. An education is worth different amounts to different people. Why is there a tone here that it's offensive to actually contribut to your own education? Many would swallow glass if Harvard required it.</p>
<p>I don't believe it is "offensive" to contribute to education. My husband and I both work, we have saved and done the best we could. We are prepared to pay and to go into further debt. I am only saying that I would look upon 20k in merit differently than the chance to take a 20k loan.</p>
<p>Also, I would not swallow glass...(too practical for that!)</p>
<p>Lkf, the workstudy does have a bit of a grant component in the break that you get in taxes, AND you don't report the income on FAFSA the following year. One of the crazy things for kids on financial aid, is that if they work, they have to report in on the FAFSA, as they do any accumulation of money which in turn reduces the aid in the subsequent year. Kind of crazy, isn't it? So workstudy funds that go towards tuition, books, etc does not get counted and has an intrinisic worth over and above that job you can get at the juice bar for minimum wage which does get gauged. </p>
<p>There is often a bitter tone that creeps into these financial aid discussions that I wish could be avoided. Most families that I know do not live in luxery in grand mansions and expensive cars. They work hard to live in a safe neighborhood around people with the same values they have in a good school district for their kids. They are on budgets and every indulgence means a sacrifice. Sometimes they do overindulge and they pay for it with a credit card balance. In order to maintain this equilibrium and to responsibly provide for their own retirement, a $45K college education is more than they can afford. They have read the 4 "myths" about college (recently in "Money" magazine), listened to counselors and advisors, read the college guide books, and are optimisitic that something will come up. It is a slap in the face when their excellent student who has done what he is supposed to do, gets into a great college that is a wonderful fit, gets no merit aid, and the financial aid package amounts to a small loan and work study. The tab comes to $45K a year, if you are realistic in counting everything, and the aid barely covers $4K. Ok, the kid will probably get a grand in graduation gifts, so the family nut is now $40K. And the family has only an emergency store of savings, retirement, about $10K in some CD and the house still requires a healthy mortgage payment, the younger siblings are in the school so selling is not a good option, they have orthodonita which is expensive, ECs also expensive, necessitating two reliable cars in that suburb where they live. It is a bitter pill to start those austeritiy measures to come up with the $20k in tuition payments. Yes, the cost of have kid1 away will be a savings of something, but it is going to be tough to suck it down. The other kids are going to have to start penny pinching as well. Things like school lunches if not subsidized may have to go the way of the bagged lunch which I notice has become virtually extinct these days. Am I the only one who is the bag lady when we go places, a habit left over from when I had so many kids that I would pack a big bag of food when we went anywhere as vending machines and snack stands just added up to too much for us. Not eating out as much, going to bargain movies and less frequently, cutting down on shopping, putting off any nonessential home improvement and repair stuff, no more splurges. Watch the lights--the electric bill can go down. Buy the "Tightwad Gazette" . Yes, a family with 3 kids making about $120K can usually come up with $20. Then you pull $5K from saving and borrow $10K from PLUS and tell the collegebound one that the "graduate summer" of travel and play is not for her; maybe when she graduates from college, but now there is work to be done and she needs to make $5K this summer which means double shifts. But she is young and can do it if she want to go to that school. Otherwise, it is State or Local U at about a third of the cost or less if she commutes, and some of those may even throw in some money if her academic profile is good enough. That is the choice. And it is a hard one for a family that does not feel it is rich, and does not feel it has been living extravagantly, especially compared to its peers. When you look at the income levels in this country, you can then get some idea as to who is truly needy, and for financial aid, those levels are not as low as you would think given the number of kids whose family cannot possibly come up with $20K in college costs. That is their entire income. They are likely not making ends meet, living in substandard housing in dangerous areas, driving cars that need a prayer to get to the destination. Not what many of us consider an acceptable way to live if we at all have the money to buy our way out of this.</p>
<p>jamimom...thanks for the work-study insight! The financial aid game is a bit of a mystery to me, and sometimes there seems to be no rhyme nor reason as to who gets what. As you can probably tell, I am not the financial one in this family! I am just thankful that we have saved because we will certainly need to use that money (and more). And we, like many other parents, have postponed our goals and dreams to give our kids the best we possible could. It's a choice people make on a daily basis: movies or music lessons, dinners out or sports fees, vacation or summer programs, designer clothes or mom at home. Happily, I can honestly say that I never regret our choices (even driving the 15 year old car until the doors fell off!), and I guess I should be very glad that we had some choices to make!</p>
<p>Regarding work-study, do I understand correctly that it is more advantageous to make a few thousand in a work-study campus job than to make the money in an independent job? That does seem crazy! Do you know what wage is usual for a w-s job? Also, how many hours per week do the kids usually get? My one reservation with w-s is that it is limited to the school year. My son makes a good bit of money at his job, which he has had since he was 16 (and volunteered before that), and I don't believe he could maintain his summer employment if he gave up the school year hours. (of couse, this only is valid if he goes to school close to home).</p>
<p>PS- We are also "bag people"...I have packed lunches for my kids every day for the last 12 years! Not only does this provide better nutrition, but the size of our school lunches would necessitate my son buying TWO lunches to get enough to eat!</p>
<p>Jamimom, GREAT post. Are you sure you don't live in my house?? We are ones who have "bitten the bitter pill" and pay that tuition bill. We don't go out much, don't go on family vacations requiring airfare/hotel/car/etc, don't have new cars. We DO bag our lunches, and even take our coffee in commuter mugs instead of going to Starbucks. Every cent helps. We are very careful with our spending, and do as much home repair ourselves as possible. We are making ends meet, but we are certainly NOT saving any money while #1 is in college (and he got a decent merit aid package all things considered...the equivalent of one free year of college). #2 is a hs junior and they both will be in college together for one year. Believe me, we still won't qualify for need based aid (well...maybe the Stafford Loan will be subsidized for that one year...). We are prepared to bit the bullet on that year as well. I'm already looking at evening part time job options. We will NOT put financial restrictions on #2 that we did not put on her brother. Of course, we are hopeful that she will continue to do well, and that will net her some merit aid. She is applying to 2 out of state state universities (both in the same state) and the tuition to those is very modest (compared to her brother's private school tuition). She is looking at smaller schools at which she would be in the top tier of students. And she is applying to ONLY one reach school where aid would probably be minimal if any at all. I'm not saying that what WE are doing is what every family can or should do...but it is our choice to do this.</p>
<p>Thumper, I do not live that life now, but have lived it for many, many years. H was a postgrad perpetual student type. So that's why we lived in student type digs for years. I can afford Starbucks now, but I do have to bite my tongue when I see a regular in my favorite Starbuck complaining about college costs. I know that one spends about $50 a week in there easily, is wearing a new suede and fur coat that costs in the thousands, has designer everything, belongs to an expensive health club, is discussing which chic restaraunt to eat, drives an expensive (probably leased car) and is out there smoking cigarettes as well. And she does not think her family is "rich", and I guess it is not, but there is a lot of pruning that can be done in that budget garden. And these kids, yes, mine included, want to go on a spring break trip, take off the summer, etc. Well, if you are from a middle income family and do not have your college tuition in a trust fund, you are now joining the low income crowd for a few years as you share your income with ABC College. It's really as simple as that, but hard to swallow, and I understand it is hard to swallow. These folks get defensive and the true low income families get nasty. This is a learning experience for everyone. A good reason why when I was in PA, most families sent their kids to Pitt or Penn State if they could get in there. $45K after taxes is one big pill to swallow. Maybe $30K if you go to some other state school not in your home state. After saving for a house, retirement funds, emergency funds, a small nest egg, paying for kids education, ECs, enrichments, disasters, there is really not a lot extra in a $100K salary to pay for that tuition or to save for it. You had to have made a private college for your kids, your main priority all of those years, and I don't know if that is such a healthy thing either. I do know families who do it, and bless them, but there is a value to living for the day as well. It's a pretty narrow focus to live for that private college for all of those years. I know in some years we were living on debt, forget about saving money. So, it is very understandable how painful the reality check is for families making "a lot " of money, usually that $100-200K range, when that FAFSA number arrives.</p>
<p>My family is in a similar situation to that of recent posters. We drive ten year old cars, generally take driving (often camping) vacations, eat out only on special occassions and brown bag it during the week. If our son gets into his first choice school we'll be looking at $40K/year in school costs and we will suck it up and pay them. What I wonder when I read about some posters plans for extreme belt tightening (no more eating out, no Starbucks, etc) is Why didn't they start that eighteen years ago? It's not like they couldn't see this coming.</p>
<p>They did not see it coming. They assumed that something would come up and believed those articles that proclaimed that the horrible cost of college was a big myth and that there are all sorts of financial and merit aid out there for everyone. Also many families just feel that there is no reason for the kid not to go to state school, and that is fine and affordable. Sometimes it takes a long time for it to sink in that State U is not for everyone, and more importantly, not for your kid. And, yes, it is possible not to be able to go to Harvard for monetary reasons. I have heard that one (Harvard will not let anyone not be able to go for monetary reasons) a million times. They don't understand that it is federal and college methodology that defines need, not what you need to continue your lifestyle. It is a distinction that is distant until you are right there. </p>
<p>My son's very good friend was accepted to a number of schools last year. Very bright young man, the oldest child. The parents wanted him to go anywhere he wanted to go, they would come up with the money somehow. So he applied to schools with no regard to cost or chances of getting merit aid, and chose NYU. He didn't get a dime of aid. He didn't get any merit money. The "somehow" went from an abstract issue to reality. They did manage to scrape up the money first term, and he went in style into a dorm to NYU. But before you know it , the tuition for the second term is due, and it is usually here that the cracks start to show. If not, the whole thing is going to go up next year anyways. They could not pay it. Grandpa who was so proud and willing to cough up some big bucks didn't want to hear it so soon. Dad who consults as a living did not get some jobs he thought he would. And the car died. The roof needed to be replaced. And NYU wanted another $15K+ for tuition alone, and $6K for that tiny room. So he will commute which is not cheap either. They borrowed $10K, and scraped up the $5K and the kid will have to work for commuting money and food. He is looking for work during spring break and summer, and is finally getting through his head that he is going to have to bust tail and make about $10K, possible by double shifting and taking no weekends off, in order to pay for the next term, and hope that Grandpa will please throw in some money each year. And living there will not be an option. I know these people, they are not stupid, but they ignored the reality of college expenses. And they have two more kids to put through college. In their day, (my day), federal student aid funds were more generous in proportion to the costs. When tuition is $3000, and the amounts are calibrated to that, it can be doable. These days the federal amounts have not be raised to reflect the upward increases in tuition, particularly at the private schools. Even if you get the maximum federal package, you are not going to put much of a dent in the cost of the most expensive schools. If the college itself does not help you out, you are done. And you have to make very little money to get the max out of the government. So little that it would not have been a likely option to put a way a dime for college.</p>
<p>My son is a high school junior and is looking for a top engineering program. However, our income level will not qualify for anything but some subsidized loans. We are considering RPI, especially since he has been givin his school's Rensselaer Medal. I know others have mentioned Case for goog merit aid. Any suggestions of other engineering schools with good aid packages. My son has 1380 old SAT's and a 3.7 GPA, just a few EC's. He is taking the new SAT and SAT II's later this Spring.</p>
<p>Originaloog is probably the best parent to ask about this. You might want to search through his posts. I believe his son was also given the Rensselaer Medal, and may have gone on there with a very juicy scholarship. Some other options are Olin which is a tuition free start up, Cooper Union which is also a tuition free school. Some of the state schools have excellent engineering departmens, say Purdue, and there are a bunch of smaller engineering programs at schools like Rose Hulman, Kettering, Drexel that offer cost saving coop programs or generous merit aid.</p>
<p>Thanks Jamimom,
My son loves Olin, but they are looking for 1500+ SAT's and my son's GPA is also a bit low. My wife is not jumping up and down about having him in NYC, so Cooper is probably not a choice for us (They also want good stats). My son is definitely applying to Purdue (probably too big for him) and Rose (his 2nd choice of matches right now after RPI), but we are unsure of how much aid they will give. He is also looking at U MD, Case, Union and Bucknell as safty/match schools and CMU and Cornell as reaches. Again questions as to possible aid.</p>
<p>A second point is if he chooses CMU or Cornell as his first choice and applys ED. If accepted we will be stuck going there and with whatever aid package they choose to give.</p>
<p>I would like to add that work study and loan awards are not exactly chopped liver. They are not as nice as grants that you don't have to pay back, but they are great in their own way. </p>
<p>Answering lfk about 10 posts up, a dollar earned work study is worth about $1.50 earned off campus, when you take into account the hit that ordinary wages get on the next year's fafsa. The hourly pay is about the same or even slightly better than the student would get making fries or bagging groceries. The work study employer (the university) understands about taking time off to study for finals or spring break. The student can often get a work study job that is tied to his major or primary EC, e.g., a biology major working in a prof's lab, a music major working in the marching band admin. office, a retail major working in the campus bookstore, etc. This means that the student is working in an area of interest even if the work is somewhat menial, is tuned in to the goings-on in that area, builds relationships that will be useful later, sees friends coming and going, etc. Not bad. Work weeks of about 10 hours are usual, but more can be accomodated by asking the employer to increase the hours or by taking a second job.</p>
<p>Loans are great too in their own way. I am speaking of loans awarded in a financial aid package. Many have no payments and no interest accruing until after graduation. This is free money. Another plus in my mind is that the assumption is that the student will pay off the loans with a portion of the decent salary they will get as a result of their hard work and success in college. This is a "buy in" by the student, forcing a recognition that college is not only about parties and football. Also it can force an ongoing analysis of whether this ivy-walled campus is really worth that much more than the regional State U. It probably is, but the student's buy-in in the form of loans puts that decision in the right place.</p>
<p>PLANTREE, I suggest your son apply EA to a number of schools instead of ED. That way, he'll have some in the bag or have an indicator of where he is a bit earlier than the spring. He can roll with the big states like Penn State and MIchigan--we are talking Sept for those apps. And Case is also a great EA school. As for scholarships, for any of the known names, my gut is that those test scores do need to go up, but they likely will. Studying for them or getting a tutor may be a worthwhile time/expense venture. Take a look at the USN&WR Ultimate College Guide. There is a section that lists schools by the money they give and one column is merit aid. Check out the ones with the engineering programs, look them up individually and see what the percentage of merit awards are. Your son should be well in that percentage score wise to have a shot at the money--you look up the SAT ranges of each school for that infor. A quick way to get some idea where he stands in the scholarship chase for a particular school. But several of the kids who applied to a number of state schools and a few schools that were EA happily had some birds in hand by Christmas with more notifications coming in early spring and also had a reality check on the money and the more selective schools at that time with still a bit of time to apply to other programs.</p>
<p>dt123
Thanks for the work and loan info! The work actually sounds pretty good, from both a financial and interest angle. As you mentioned, it can be a good way keep up on the latest happenings in an area of interest...not to mention a great way to meet people. And we will certainly be learning details of school loans very soon. I agree that the delayed payback is great, but I never really thought of the students' emotional investment in the decision. Good point! As a practical person who worked himself through school, my husband made a spread sheet that included an unusual column. It said that assuming a degree from ABC school gets you $$$ more money per year than XYZ school, how long will it take to even out the expenses? 2 years? 5 years? 8 years? Naturally, our son is interested in an expensive school. I guess hubby was trying to make the finances more real for our him, too.</p>
<p>"lkf" - (I got your name wrong in the prior post, sorry)
I'm a big fan of work study, as you can tell. How do I know all this?</p>
<p>DS#1 is a EE major and major computer geek. He went to "interview" for a work study job with the univ. media center, who needed someone to be on call to hook up profs' laptops to classroom projectors and things like that. When the director found out he was EE, he was hired on the spot and not let to leave until he filled out his work schedule. He loves this job.</p>
<p>DS#2 is a ME major, minoring in music performance and in the marching band. During summer band (before the fall semester started), the band director just said at one point, "all students with work study awards stay after practice today to fill out the paperwork." It was just understood that band members would work in the band office. And what a cool job that is. One day he had to spend the afternoon at a country club running a homecoming golf tournament for alumni band members. One time he had to put his band uniform on and pose for pictures to be in a new band brochure. He gets to work on logistics for band trips and talk to new prospects on the phone. He and his GF (also in the band) arrange their schedules so they hang out together working at the band office.</p>
<p>One more story, which I think is funny. I was looking at the work study postings one time and saw that the Theater dept. needed someone to work in the office. It specifically said no Theater majors allowed to apply. Apparently their experience was that, in that department, there was just to much opportunity for getting the inside scoop for it to be fair or advisable.</p>
<p>dt123: It sounds like both of your sons have really cool jobs. It certainly is very encouraging that colleges try to match students' jobs with their skills and abilities! (PS - the theater story IS funny, and in such a competitive field it is totally believable!). My son has a "tech" job now and loves it, and I know he would welcome such work at college. He sounds like he has things in common with S#2, as he is interested in engineering/physics/music performance.</p>
<p>My son did not qualify for work study so he had to fine his own job. He's a music major who found a job ushering for the Boston Symphony. Great job, good pay, the right hours, free concerts. What better job could there be.</p>
<p>Re: Work study & FAFSA</p>
<p>How does it work that you don't report this income on FAFSA? Does FAFSA ask for your work study award and subtract it? I know my D received a 1099/W2 for her campus job, so where does it get taken away by FAFSA?</p>
<p>I think you DO report income earned from Work Study on your taxes...therefore the following year it will appear as earned income on your FAFSA as well.</p>