<p>As some of you may or may not know, last year I spent a fair amount of time on these forums browsing for information and sharing what I knew. Now I am a cadet in company A-1. If anyone has any questions which you would like a first hand opinion on I am open to questions. I will try to answer any questions you have, but try to avoid anything on the admissions process which I am no longer up to speed on.</p>
<p>Respectfully,</p>
<p>CDT PVT Mumford
USCC Co. A-1
"Go Axemen"</p>
<p>As a parent my questions are:</p>
<p>Please rate the quality of instruction you are receiving at USMA. (Poor, Fair, Good, VG, Excellent, Unbelievable).</p>
<p>Is there an on campus Catholic Mass on Sunday? If you do not know see if you can find out. </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>FatherOfFive.</p>
<p>Don't know how busy Cadet Mumford is, so I will answer part of your question. There is a very active Catholic Chapel with Mass several times weekly. You can find information here: </p>
<p>A funny tidbit for you. During Beast Summer there is "Chaplains Time" on Wednesdays when the new cadets are allowed to go and have fellowship with the congregations of various chapels. Food is provided by the various folks, which is VERY important to cadets at this point. Historically the Catholic Chapel is known for putting out the best spread of baked goods, etc -- my son said it is absolutely amazing to see how many cadets decide they are "catholic" as the the summer progresses, and word spreads!</p>
<p>Yup, my Episcopalian daughter turned into a Roman Catholic for Beast last year---she says their food during chaplain's time was the best!</p>
<p>I am guilty of going Catholic as well. Huah. </p>
<p>Mumford! I didn't even realize you were the same guy from CC, its me Law...from MAJ Miseli's class.</p>
<p>As far as instructors go, I'd rate MAJ Miseli as Unbelievable, most others as VG. </p>
<p>BTW, I went to protestant one time at the very end...Its sad compared to the catholic one. At the catholic chapel, there is so much good food. At protestant its a ton of cookies and soda. Followed by a scramble of rats...its literally a fight to get food. Wouldn't suggest going down to Thayer for that...</p>
<p>alright..I'm going to leave it up to Law. Since I picked up the slack on the math project, you can answer anyones questions.</p>
<p>Go Choir! Catholic Mass is held every morning at 0630 in the Chaplains office before breakfast. There is a Saturday Mass at 1700 and a Sunday one at 1100 (with the cadet choir) and 930 (?) with the Folk Choir. For high holy days, there's usually a morning session and a noon one, sometimes one in the evenings. Leave Eve (our version of Christmas) is something to be seen and around Thanksgiving there is always a pie social. If you go on the weekends, there are usually munchies in the rectory next door after, donuts (bagels during Lent) and fresh fruit.</p>
<p>hey i have a question.
how competitive is the nomination process? I have an interview this Saturday and I heard 200 people are going to be there and only like 10 people get chosen.</p>
<p>JJx508,</p>
<p>Yes, the nomination process is competitive. Your Member of Congress is probably interviewing for at least three service academies which should translate into at least thirty nominations.</p>
<p>My congressional district in Indiana only has (two) people attepting to get a nomination. My MOC has (three) vacencies. She may fill two of them, or maybe only one. However, in an un-competitive district like mine, that adds to my advantage. I'm not sure about my senators, however.</p>
<p>I'm also a cadet, but I'm here to give a more realistic view of the school. Both the cadets here are plebes, so although life is hard, they're are both still in the "honeymoon" period. Right now I am looking at transferring out because of my disappointment with the school. I am a brat, of a brat, of a brat...if you get the point, so the military life was not new to me. however, in relaying stories to parents and career military friends, they are constantly amazed at the leadership style preached by West Point (not in a good way). Instead of allowing for one's personal leadership to develop, the higher officials (TAC's and higher ranking cadets) continually make rediculous demands/actions that in a clear state of mind, no thinking human would ever make, in order to set a "proper military bearing/example". For example, during my field training, we were allowed a total of 4 days off..nothing wrong with that. Our company only received half a day off because each weapon needed to be cleaned for 17 hours straight, no exaggeration. Many more incidences like this. All I'm saying is, for the many, the leader you will be when you come out of this school is the leader you were when you went in. As such, I feel that I can serve my nation better in other manners. Make sure that you or your child fully understands the "hurry up and wait", the "suck", and the unnecessary hardship as a result from unsocialized cadets (tools in cadet-speak). On the other hand, the academics are incredible. Small classes, teachers who are actively involved in your studies (and even invite you to their house, for a run, to dinner, to blow off steam in the gym, whatever), and classes that are rigorous, but manageable. Also, it is a great feeling being completely financially independent from your parents. However, realize that with that independence comes sacrifice of the normal college fun (I had no problem giving that up). I'm telling you all MY story to give a balanced view. Please don't take this for cynicism or the view of all cadets (my roommate enjoys himself here). Feel free to flame me.</p>
<p>You are transferring out? You put in all that work for nothing is what im getting. If you already knew about the military life why did you attempt to gain acceptance. If you already knew everything why go. No offense, but if you knew you werent going to stay you took a spot from somebody that probably wanted it more.</p>
<p>Geoffa,
I dont want to attack you or your feelings. Is leaving the academy something you have been considering for awhile or is this a recent thing? I have been told that many cadets go through periods of wanting to quit. Some get beyond it and choose to stay and some decide that leaving is the right thing. Either way you have to do what is right for you.</p>
<p>I agree that anyone considering a service academy should come in with their eyes wide open to what it is like. Also, they should be there because they want to be there and not because someone pressured them to be there or because it is a free education. (What is that saying I heard? I think it goes something like this: $250,000 shoved up your *** one nickel at a time.)</p>
<p>I appreciate your candor, but at this point I dont think anything anyone says will deter my son from West Point. Right now he is getting a small taste of the suck at NMMI. Most of his complaints are regarding leadership and not the academics. Sound familiar?</p>
<p>Good luck with whatever you decide to do.</p>
<p>Best Wishes geoffa. Hopefully you have given this much thought and have sought counsel of the people you trust most. If this truly is your desire and it is the best thing for you than godspeed---you aren't the first and won't be the last to make such a tough choice.</p>
<p>AFAbound:</p>
<p>"You put in all that work for nothing is what im getting"
-I don't think that I'm getting nothing. I met some great friends, I just feel now that going through West Point is not the manner in which I would be of most value to the nation.</p>
<p>"If you already knew about the military life why did you attempt to gain acceptance?"
-I knew the military life. I didn't know the West Point life. I don't feel like being pressured to change my leadership example, even though it is effective and has proven so, just because somebody disagrees with it. I don't feel like I was trying to gain acceptance, either. I was accepted, but decided that it wasn't for me. Once again, West Point is not the Army.</p>
<p>"If you already knew everything why go?"
-I THOUGHT I knew everything. I was wrong. We can never be certain about anything if we've never fully experienced it. Trust me, the Air Force Academy will be different than what you expected it to be. Its just the way things happen. In this case, however, factors unforseen by me in the past rose up and turned me away from the West Point traditions. </p>
<p>"No offense, but if you knew you weren't going to stay you took a spot from somebody that probably wanted it more."
-I actually do take offense to this one. I fully wanted to serve my nation, and still do. At the time I believed that the Army was my route of choice. Now, however, I feel that working within the CIA, FBI, or State Department will be the best. I had no intentions of stealing a spot from someone else.</p>
<p>The Air Force Academy is a vastly different place than West Point. In talking with the Zoomie thats with our company, he said that the daily hump/grind is quite a change from the more relaxed, and intellectual atmosphere of Colorado Springs. At West Point, almost all the emphasis now seems to be on shoes, rooms, APFT scores and how loud you can yell at your subordinates (my COC is being scrutinized by cadet staff because they use rewards instead of punishments as incentives, for example). Instead, I feel that officers are the brains of the army, so therefore, we should place more emphasis on education (like the other academies). Then we should have training structured of the social tact of being an officer. To be a leader, your soldiers should respect your character, not your rank. It seems that rank is now the basis of leadership, not personal skills. Pushups, pullups, and a good uniform all fall below that. My only question is, if officers of the same calibre can be produced from ROTC programs, why does it have to be like this?</p>
<p>WAMom68:</p>
<p>"Is leaving the academy something you have been considering for awhile or is this a recent thing? I have been told that many cadets go through periods of wanting to quit. Some get beyond it and choose to stay and some decide that leaving is the right thing. Either way you have to do what is right for you."
-I appreciate this. I have been considering leaving since the second week of Buckner. After seeing cadet leadership in action, the reputation West Pointers had with the Task Force instructing us, and the actions of the West Pointers within the Task Force, I got a sick feeling that I did not want to associate myself with that stigma. I hope I can get beyond it...it will save a lot of time with applications!</p>
<p>"I appreciate your candor, but at this point I dont think anything anyone says will deter my son from West Point. Right now he is getting a small taste of the suck at NMMI. Most of his complaints are regarding leadership and not the academics. Sound familiar?"
-Best of luck to your son. I have good friends that went through NMMI, and it prepared them well for the rigorous first year. The only word of advice I have for him is to keep his eyes set on the goal: being an officer in the Army. Once that goal gets hazy (not when he doesn't like the hazing, lack of privileges, or comiserating with buddies), its time to reevaluate the options. There were many times plebe year I didn't like not being able to leave or cupping my hands, but I still wanted to be an officer.</p>
<p>Once again, these are just my feelings...to each their own. Some love it, others its not for them. I feel that West Point is a great opportunity, and those who are selected and feel that it is the right path for them should take it, just as much as Johns Hopkins is for a person who wants to be a doctor, or Harvard for a lawyer. If you don't want the end result, its not for you. </p>
<p><em>Gets off soapbox</em></p>
<p>This sounds an awful lot like what I heard from my son and many of his friends last year. There is even a term to describe it : "Bitter Yuk". I am not saying your feelings are not valid, but you are going to find good and bad leaders and systems wherever you go. And if you think the FBI, CIA, or State Department don't have more than their fair share of jerks and ridiculous seeming policies and procedures you are in for a rude awakening. I won't quibble with you if you honestly decide to leave because West Point is not for you -- it isn't for everyone. I will argue with you when you make statements like "...I got a sick feeling that I did not want to associate myself with that stigma". Ask those same task force guys what they think of 2LT ROTC grads -- the big joke is you follow a 2LT not because he is a leader, but to see what incredibly screwed up thing he will do next. You can't find ANY leaders among the TAC's, instructors, or cadets that you see as positive? Bottom line, you can say the system (which is far from perfect) is not for you without being so insulting of it. </p>
<p>PS If you think this is a West Point issue, check out this thread on the Service Academies forum.
<a href="http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?p=2240#post2240%5B/url%5D">http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?p=2240#post2240</a></p>
<p>USMA08Mom:</p>
<p>I have been called a bitter yuk by my friends, but I think it stems a little deeper than that. My dad went to a service academy and said he delt with similar issues as me, but he wound up graduating and is about to put on O7. He seems to think I'll grow out of it, but there was an incident that really scared him. Normally I'm a very placid, laid back guy; never have gotten into a fight, and hated hitting my buddies in boxing class. However, a few days ago, I blew up on a Firstie because he was being such a complete tool. I hate what I did to him, noit because I couldn't handle pressure, but because I was fed up with his and others like his remarks. I just don't like West Point has changed me into. I know that 2LT's are in the process of finding themselves, but heres a story that kept showing its head over the summer. We came into contact with 4 Pl's this summer. 2 from ROTC, 2 from WP. The 2 from ROTC had a genuinly good relationship with their men. I asked a few of the Spec-4's and NCO's what the thought of these two, and they said that they were great guys, and loved being under them. They messed up on land nav or had flaws otherwise, but as a person, they were great. The 2 WP Pl's, it was night and day. The men would openly be aggravated with them, they would complain continuously aboiut what a d*** they were, and on and on. On top of this, my military instructor has constantly harped on us to not be "West Pointers" when we get to the Army. As far as Tac teams, or instructors. I do, but they are all prior service non-grads, or guys who are finishing their coimmitment for grad school and pulling chocks. I didn't mean to be so insulting, I was just spelling out the myriad of events which has drawn me closer to leaving.</p>
<p>I'm sorry for taking over this post. I originally only wanted to show candidates that West Point isn't amazing all the time. Take care, everyone.</p>
<p>Geoffa, Thank you for taking the time to post your comments about WP. Every potential applicant should read them because it gives the other side. </p>
<p>The mother of an AFA graduate said she was told by a military officer that the military is concerned about the academy experience. They see a much higher incidence of military academy graduates who have a hard time adjusting to life outside of the academy after graduation than those who went to a regular university and did ROTC or OCS. They drink more and have more "problems" than those students who went to a regular university.</p>
<p>Geoffa, I hope you hang in there. You are the type of person that can change things for the better. When you get out of WP, you wil be the officer that the troops look up to like those ROTC officers that you spoke of.</p>
<p>Loophole, thanks for the appreciation. I'm usually received with accusations of trying to undermine the "system" when I voice my opinions here. My Senior year of high school, while my Dad was at the war college, the past Supe of WP came to speak to him and his classmates at a very informal lunch session. One Army ROTC grad asked the question, "If we have ROTC programs as a commisioning source, and the Army is currently struggling to reallocate funds, what is the necessity of spending so much money on West Point when the graduates have a history of alcoholism, and other incidences, due to their seperation from a normal college experience?" His response was, "Well, the ROTC programs do provide a valuable resource for leaders that have social fortitude, and can understand the seemingly common tasks of renting an apartment, washing clothes, balancing work with play. But West Pointers have been ingrained with honor and integrity moreso than other commisioning programs." I brushed it off my shoulder when my Dad told me this, but now, it says alot of the type of elitist branding (ring-knockers) they use as commisioners. I just got off the phone with my Dad, and he says that that quote is pretty much word for word. Just something to think about. I hope I can hang through, too. But as one family friend noted (he's a bada** SF guy from U of Central Florida ROTC), I'm going to be fighting an uphill battle to lose by WP reputation. Plus, as I said in my earlier post, I'm changing into something I'm not.</p>
<p>My biggest concern about my son attending a service academy has been that he won't have the true college experience. There's so much to be learned there and memories to look back on. You can say the same thing about attending an SA but the experience is certainly different. His heart has been set on attending an SA for a long time (he's an athlete and is being recruited by both WP and USNA). Based on discussions with the coaches, I think an athlete's experience is probably different (read better) than someone who is not an athlete.</p>
<p>Do you know if officers from the other academies have the same negative reputation with the troops?</p>